How do you use your brakes on a rece track circuit? I usually push the pedal as late as I can and let the ABS do the work. I have also tried to modulate the brake pedal, so the wheels don't lock, but I can't say which is better, i.e. will ABS braking decelerate me faster then some hard, but not ABS braking?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by petrv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do you use your brakes on a rece track circuit? I usually push the pedal as late as I can and let the ABS do the work. I have also tried to modulate the brake pedal, so the wheels don't lock, but I can't say which is better, i.e. will ABS braking decelerate me faster then some hard, but not ABS braking?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Brake as late as possible, but get the best corner-entry speed. That means you want the car settled down when you're turning in.

ABS is more wear on your tires than you'd ideally like, but it is probably the fastest way to stop in the dry.

Try to avoid ABS for driving schools, but yeah the ABS should stop you just a hair faster. If you disable the ABS, theoretically, you might be able to modulate the brakes better, but the ITR ABS is super-excellent for the dry.

 

So, if I don't care about the tires wear, I can use this ABS hard braking with no problems and it will make my ITR brake the fastest.

 

ABS would freak me out on the track. I had the tires screeching under braking at expo (mainly at turn 1) but never activated ABS. Of course Im a noob and wasnt driving as hard as many of you were.

 

I try to avoid using the front ABS.... just get as close as you can to using it and save the last little bit for those "just in case" moments.

The rear ABS should be going crazy all of the time (under braking) while on track.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I try to avoid using the front ABS.... just get as close as you can to using it and save the last little bit for those "just in case" moments.

The rear ABS should be going crazy all of the time (under braking) while on track. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i take it you are being serious?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nishant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i take it you are being serious?</TD></TR></TABLE>
as a heart attack.

the rear abs is used 'heavily' under 'track use' braking.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as a heart attack.

the rear abs is used 'heavily' under 'track use' braking. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like you have a brake bias issue. Or I have a brake bias issue.

More rear bias == more straight line braking stability?

Are you sure that's ABS and not just tire chirping?

Agreed on the "leave just a little extra braking, just in case"!

Another thing, I suppose ABS braking actually transfers a little LESS heat into the brake pads, more into the tires, but it you have them break apart, I would suggest ABS had a little to do with that.

Other than a little physical pad abuse, there shouldn't be any other unusual wear...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
as a heart attack.

the rear abs is used 'heavily' under 'track use' braking. </TD></TR></TABLE>

question for you...

heading into turn 1 at MAM, hard braking from the straight. my rear felt squirmy. could these be because i was using full tread RA1's or something else? I have never had this problem before

 

Nish my brand new Azenis felt the same way, rear end was all over the place. obviously our cars arent the same, but probably because weight was transferred to the front, and fresh treaded tires made it move around a bit. I assume it will get better as the tires wear.

 

I also try to get right up to the threshold of braking before the ABS kicks in. Part of it is just a comfort thing - I don't feel as if I have as much control or leeway once the ABS kicks in.

As far as stability under braking I am having no problems. Sure, the rear gets light but it is not moving without my help...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nish my brand new Azenis felt the same way, rear end was all over the place. obviously our cars arent the same, but probably because weight was transferred to the front, and fresh treaded tires made it move around a bit. I assume it will get better as the tires wear. </TD></TR></TABLE>

that is my guess as well. more tracking is needed

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nishant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

question for you...

heading into turn 1 at MAM, hard braking from the straight. my rear felt squirmy. could these be because i was using full tread RA1's or something else? I have never had this problem before</TD></TR></TABLE>

it's because under heavy braking a ton of weight transfers forward, and the rear becomes very light. combine this with the undulations that are present in the braking zone to T1 at MAM, and you have a situation which would make the rear of the car dance around a bit. this is exactly why the instructors say to leave yourself 12-16 inches of extra room to the outside going into T1.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
More rear bias == more straight line braking stability?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Quite the opposite...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I also try to get right up to the threshold of braking before the ABS kicks in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which is why it's called "threshold braking". Most track schools encourage threshold braking and teach you that it gives you the fastest, shortest stopping distances on dry pavement (sorry, Chris) as well as wet pavement.

Another track technique that is widely taught is trail braking. This means, when you come off the brakes, doing so gradually (trailing off) to keep the car balanced as you start to get on the power.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Quite the opposite...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I always FIGURED the opposite, since you can do donuts by pulling the e-brake.

But in a straight line, the rear drag will pull your car back to center... so I dunno. Not something I've played a LOT (hardly at all) with, but my current (Spec VR front, XP8 rear) setup is fine so I'm not touching it! Actually I think stiffer springs made a bigger difference than anything.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Which is why it's called "threshold braking". Most track schools encourage threshold braking and teach you that it gives you the fastest, shortest stopping distances on dry pavement (sorry, Chris) as well as wet pavement.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

But but... These are TYPE R ABS motors.

Really, it seems to be "common knowledge" (heh) on the RR/AX board that ITR ABS gives shorter braking distances, and some are leaving it in despite the weight.

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But in a straight line, the rear drag will pull your car back to center... so I dunno. </TD></TR></TABLE>

....it doesn't.

A car is most stable with front wheels locked-up and sliding, although it's not very steerable at that point.

Last thing you want in most situations (drifting/rallying excepted) is the rear wheels locking-up before the fronts.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But but... These are TYPE R ABS motors.

Really, it seems to be "common knowledge" (heh) on the RR/AX board that ITR ABS gives shorter braking distances, and some are leaving it in despite the weight.

-Chris
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's not always a case, it depends on a lot of factors, the only situations where it is true for sure is in a split-mu situation where one side of the car has more braking traction than the other. The ABS-equipped car will slow down and stop much quicker and much straighter than one without.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's not always a case, it depends on a lot of factors, the only situations where it is true for sure is in a split-mu situation where one side of the car has more braking traction than the other. The ABS-equipped car will slow down and stop much quicker and much straighter than one without.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the real advantage of ABS - not that the stopping distances are shorter, but that the car is steerable under extreme braking, and stays straight if you steer straight. Even (and especially) on wet pavement.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is the real advantage of ABS - not that the stopping distances are shorter, but that the car is steerable under extreme braking, and stays straight if you steer straight. Even (and especially) on wet pavement.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct, but it can also be a hindrance, the code is written with a large number of assumptions, and is a compromise between stopping distance, stability, and control. I, personally, wouldn't want ABS if I was driving in loose dirt or sand unless it was specifically designed with that in mind.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Correct, but it can also be a hindrance, the code is written with a large number of assumptions, and is a compromise between stopping distance, stability, and control. I, personally, wouldn't want ABS if I was driving in loose dirt or sand unless it was specifically designed with that in mind.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, agreed. It is nice in a straight line in the dry though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yes, agreed. It is nice in a straight line in the dry though.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's because it's overcoming the suspension/braking defficiencies inherent to the DC2.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Which is why it's called "threshold braking". Most track schools encourage threshold braking and teach you that it gives you the fastest, shortest stopping distances on dry pavement (sorry, Chris) as well as wet pavement.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is correct. From my experiences, at Porsche school, this technique known as threshold braking is advocated. Generally, it does indeed give you the fastest shortest stopping distances.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I, personally, wouldn't want ABS if I was driving in loose dirt or sand unless it was specifically designed with that in mind.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I, personally, wouldn't want to be driving my ITR (or my NSX) if I were driving in loose dirt or sand.

Then again, throw on some winter tires, and the ITR rocks in the snow!