I'm reposting because I'm hoping some of you have heard of this issue also:

Well I haven't driven my hatch in a while because I've been thinking it's about time for me to change the timing belt (I like to change it every 15k miles or so).

A couple weekends ago, I stopped by .RJ's to pick up a rollbar and help with his timing belt as it was slightly loose.

I was thinking I should check the tension on the one on my hatch as well - seeing as how it wasn't as tight as is used to be the last time I checked it..... So I removed the valve cover and upper timing belt cover and gave it a once-over.

Here's the pics (I haven't tensioned it since I installed it new 20k miles ago - zero deflection at that time). Look at it now:






And then I used the coathanger method shown to me by Willard and Jack:




tools of the trade (torque to 40ft/lb)




done




Ok, now I was going to do a valve lash adjustment but it was getting late so I decided to postpone. I gave the head a once-over and decided to look at the retainers as Jack had mentioned a while back to keep an eye on the Ti ones as they sometimes wear thin.....

Here's the pics - they didn't look thin, but they did look like little mice had been chewing the edges of about 8 of them:










Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

Things to be taken into account for this motor:

'00 usdm itr motor
all of the above miles have been on toda valvetrain, and toda spec B or spec C camshafts
rev limiter is set at 9500 although it has had a couple zings to 12k rpm...
These are fairly recent occurences for the retainers - within the last 5k miles or so (I will check my odo log book tomorrow)...


I don't want to go back to stock retainers. It has been suggested to me that had I been running stock retainers, they would have cracked and broken whereas these have merely chipped.

I just don't trust stock retainers to 10k+ rpm reliably.

I know plenty of people who have broken stock retainers and it just isn't pretty.

I need a retainer that I feel will not fail under any circumstances.

If I need to cryo/ nitride/ treat, etc; I have no problem in doing so.


Here's what Tom Fujita has emailed me:

"--- info <info@portflow.com> wrote:
> looks like the rocker is hitting the retainer
> any mods done to the lost motion ?
> i have seen a customer that had H22 lost motion assy.
> and was hitting the retainer just like that
> or
> this seems to happen when the engine is at high RPM
> and the vtec is not working correctly
> only need to happen once
>
>
> "

***I should note that this is a stock itr bottom end, and the only mods to the stock itr head are the cams and valvetrain. The head has never been removed from the block.....***


Modified by Black R at 10:43 AM 5/9/2005


Modified by Black R at 12:05 PM 5/9/2005

 

I had that happen when I was running Toda D's. I modified the mid rockers by taking off material at the corners to give more clearance.

 

That has also happened to me. This was due to the old valves and stretching.
I actually found out the hard way when the valve broke at the keeper.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had that happen when I was running Toda D's. I modified the mid rockers by taking off material at the corners to give more clearance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was going to say that it looks like you need to pull the rockers and fix some clearance issues.

Oh, and wishing your missfortune upon others isn't very nice.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm reposting because I'm hoping some of you have had this issue also:
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

You can't blame the retainers for doing that. Look to your engine builder for putting in a cam that causes the rockers and retainers to come in contact. It just amazes me how people are ready to put blame on someone without really understanding the problem. Stock retainers will not work to solve the problem either.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can't blame the retainers for doing that. Look to your engine builder for putting in a cam that causes the rockers and retainers to come in contact. It just amazes me how people are ready to put blame on someone without really understanding the problem. Stock retainers will not work to solve the problem either.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I installed the cams, so that would be me to blame.

I spoke with tom fujita on the phone when ordering the retainers and told him the setup I intended to use. I'd have thought if there would be an issue, he'd have mentioned something. This is a stock itr motor other than the cams and valvetrain. The rockers are STOCK, and have never been modified, etc.

I have not blamed the retainers, but will replace these with either more of the same or perhaps those nitrided buddyclub/ ferrea/ rocket, etc...

I do want to avoid this problem in the future, so that's why I posted.

With so many people running spec c camshafts, I'm surprised I haven't heard of this sooner - heck I even know others running the same setup as myself and they never had this problem. Even my good friend Len was running vtec killers with more duration and lift than spec c's, without any such issues. So did I get a couple retainers that were dimensionally dissimilar than the rest? Unlikely. I'm curious as to why this only happened to a 1/2 of my retainers... that would lead me to think that there's something in those rockers that's different than the others in the head - how likely is that - seeing as it's just one of the stock itr motors put together by honda, and that came in my '00 itr?

It seems that the solution is as stated previously: "taking off material at the corners to give more clearance" at the rockers..... So why does my particular set of rockers have issues whereas others with identical mods do not? Just lucky?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm surprised I haven't heard of this sooner - heck I even know others running the same setup as myself and they never had this problem. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">rev limiter is set at 9500 although it has had a couple zings to 12k rpm...

I just don't trust stock retainers to 10k+ rpm reliably.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here's what Tom Fujita has emailed me:

&gt; this seems to happen when the engine is at high RPM
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Anything come to mind?

 

i know what happen. you said that you hit 12k rpm right? and most likely thats not your shift point so you must of downshifted when your suppose to upshift.

when reving that high you need to be in vtec to keep the middle rocker from hitting the retainers. and vtec does not work unless you have a certain amount of load on the throttle even in high rpms. so even 12k, or 11k or 10k, hondas LMA does not have enough spring pressure to keep the middle rockers from hitting the retainers when not in Vtec....

so the middle lob was throwing the middle rocker at the retains and that what cause the chips

john

 

Ive s2s2 cams and omni retainers and springs, and i had the same problem. It was in a stock head with no mods done to the rockers. My brand new Ti retainers got scratches after less than 100kms in it and nothing over 9000rpms.

4 other friends running crower 403s and crower retainers and springs also had to shave some material off the rockers so it wouldnt be hitting the retainers.

Although our retainers have already been slightly nicked, after taking off material in the rockers, they are now working perfectly. I remember my friends with crowers telling me that they were already advised about the retainer problem and were asked to perform the mods on the rockers. Although when i got my cams/springs/retainers there was no specific instruction on what to do with the rockers, until i saw the damage.

Everyone thinks you have an uncommon problem, but theyll probably be surprised when they check theirs.

 

good heads up, need to check these puppies out!

 

Anyone else find this problem? I'm having the same issues but only on the exhaust side, intake side is perfect. I'm using Buddy Club spec 4's with Rocket Gen 2 springs and retainers.

 

Im about to get my head assembled with S2S2 cams with valvesprings and retainers. Should i mention this rocker problem to the machine shop and what should I tell them to do?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mad Money &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im about to get my head assembled with S2S2 cams with valvesprings and retainers. Should i mention this rocker problem to the machine shop and what should I tell them to do?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Seems like it's not much of an issue for most people, I guess it's hit or miss.

 

This is also a problem with h22a's.. although only when some serious HIGH LIFT cams are used.. since the valve travels so far (it has the possibility of the retainer hitting the valve seal) to correct this problem. Specific Ti retainers are made with a raised seat on the spring.. usually +.050" - +.060" install height..

now.. this might not be the case with B-series.. but on H-series motors.. with those raised retainer install heights.. a bit of material on the both the PRIM. and SEC. rockers needs to be removed.. not just on the corners the whole underside of the rocker needs to be shaved off to make proper clearance..

this COULD possibly be part of the problem.. with those pix i'd say if that is the cause.. very little material needs to be shaved.. just enough to prevent that "chattering" effect on your retainers!!

hope this might help!!

-Adrian

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mad Money &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im about to get my head assembled with S2S2 cams with valvesprings and retainers. Should i mention this rocker problem to the machine shop and what should I tell them to do?</TD></TR></TABLE>


*reposting my response from another thread:

It depends on the build whether you will have issues with the tops of the retainers chipping off because the lost motion assembly at idle moves down far enough due to the large vtec lobes and makes the bottom of the vtec rocker arms hit them. In this case, you will either need to run a scalloped Ti retainer or grind your valvespring seats lower in order to get proper clearance.


&lt;----- been there, done that:










I modified the rocker arms in this fashion:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6ghatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Seems like it's not much of an issue for most people, I guess it's hit or miss. </TD></TR></TABLE>


It really depends on a number of factors, including:

-the install height of the valvesprings and retainers together as a set
-the lift and ramp angles of the vtec lobes vs the non-vtec lobes
-the rpm's you're turning
-etc...? (running 10k+ rpm on the non-vtec lobes)

All of the above played a part in my situation. I zinged 12k a couple of times as well.....

For reference, there is a very good write-up on http://www.theoldone.com under articles:


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by theoldone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We have to use retainers that set-up .060" higher than stock.
This can lead to retainer-to-rocker arm contact.
It's essential that the clearance between the retainer and the rocker arm be at least .040".
We check this clearance on every head we rework and assemble, as failure to do so can result in catastrophic engine damage.
In this photo, you can see the material removal necessary to achieve retainer-to-rocker arm clearance.
Any grinding marks must travel length-wise on the rocker to eliminate possible stress-risers.




</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I first noticed this problem on my old LS/VTEC. B16 head, BC3+ cams, skunk2 springs and retainers. it only chewed up the edges of two of the retainers. I think it has to do with the LMAs, whichever cylinder has the most crapped out LMAs is the one that will nibble the retainers. I've never had this problem on a head with low mileage and/or new LMAs....

 

Here is my update:

I was having similar issues as BlackR with my retainers chipping around the edges on the exhaust side. So my plan was to replace my Rocket Gen2 retainers and do some grinding to my rocker arms to get more clearance. I contacted Rocket Motorsports to order some replacement retainers, they said they have updated the design on the Gen 2's so I figured I'll try them out. Friday I received the retainers and when I opened the box I was very surprised to see them looking so different. They are slightly smaller in diameter and have a taper toward the bottom edge. Anyway, I start to disassemble my head and remove the rocker arms, upon inspection I can't really see where there was contact to the retainers, my guess is that TI is much softer then the steel rockers and they didn't leave any scaring on the rockers.

Now my new question is: Do I bother to grind down the rockers when these new retainers offer a bunch more clearance vs. the old retainers? Or should I just grind down the rockers anyway?

Factory vs. updated Rocket Gen2's





Stock, old Gen2 (with chipping), new Gen2



Installed, old vs. new.

 

bump, very interesting intfo. i never knew RM updated their stuff. do the omni and supertech look the same?

how much are the new design?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Oldskool teggy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">bump, very interesting info. i never knew RM updated their stuff. do the omni and supertech look the same?

how much are the new design?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure about Omni or Supertech, but I think RM updated them to make them compatible with B, H, and K VTEC motors.

As far as I know they are the same price.

 

Is this caused by the sides of the vtec rocker hitting the retainer, or is it the underside of the primaries hitting??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b20mike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is this caused by the sides of the vtec rocker hitting the retainer, or is it the underside of the primaries hitting??</TD></TR></TABLE>


I'm thinking it's the sides of the VTEC rocker hitting the retainers. From what I can understand, the LMA keeps pressure on the middle rocker when VTEC is not engaged but if you miss a gear and blip the throttle or rev doing heel/toe down shifts, the engine is not under load and therefor not engaging the VTEC rocker. This could cause the middle rocker to be thrown down by the VTEC lobe at high RPM's and overpower the LMA. This, in combo with a tight clearance from a higher installed height of the valve spring/retainer.

But honestly I'm just guessing, I'm no expert. and I have no idea why it mostly happened to my exhaust retainers...

I've tried calling a few performance shops and explained my issues but they seemed to have no idea what I was talking about.

Even though my LMA seem fine I'm also thinking of changing them out just to see if it helps...




Modified by 6ghatch at 4:52 PM 5/1/2006

 

good thread. subscribed.

 

I am actually surprised that it happened on your exhaust side only. I am running BC4's with omni valvetrain and H22 LMA's, after looking at the profiles on the primary and secondary lobes in relation to the vtec lobe on the BC4 exhaust cam there is almost no difference in lift. I would figure that when not it vtec the chances of the vtec rocker hitting the retainers would be far less than on the intake side where there is such a dramatic difference in the lobe lift and duration.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b20mike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am actually surprised that it happened on your exhaust side only. I am running BC4's with omni valvetrain and H22 LMA's, after looking at the profiles on the primary and secondary lobes in relation to the vtec lobe on the BC4 exhaust cam there is almost no difference in lift. I would figure that when not it vtec the chances of the vtec rocker hitting the retainers would be far less than on the intake side where there is such a dramatic difference in the lobe lift and duration.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I'm also surprised. I did look again at my intake retainers today and did notice some minor chipping, definitely not as severe as the exhaust side. I'll try and get some pics of them posted up tomorrow.
I really can't explain it.