i tried searching but just got a bunch of turbo reads.
im not sure if i have read right or maybe im just confused.
my question is this.
if i got my 92 si to over 200 whp vs having it at 250 whp with a turbo or nitrous what would be faster in the quarter mile ? sorry if its a dumb question but i have been lead to believe that an all motor car doesnt need and insane amount of whp like turbos to be fast.

 

It will depend on the amount of traction you keep with either of them. That 250 whp turbo will trap a few mph more plus some. Spin 1st and 2nd pretty good too.

 

Traction is certainly important and so is driver capability etc but generally speaking, if you had 2 identical cars pushing 200 hp and one was all motor while the other was forced induction, the FI car would always win the 1/4 mile drag race, all things being equal. This is because a forced induction car will always have a superior torque curve compared to a similar output all motor car.

This is a good example that shows that the engine that produces the highest AVERAGE hp/tq under the curve, will be the faster if everything else stays equal. Peak, like a persons height, is just a number, it's the amount of "muscle" underneath that mark/height that makes all the difference.

 

thanks for the info. anyone else have any more input ?

 

anyone ?

 

From my experiences, the all motor will win at the 1/4mile. The fact the an all motor setup does not have to wait for the power and never lags between shifts. All motor powerband is much easier to launch and hook up off the line, and the power comes on tap which allows much finer throttle control during launch to help traction.

The power transition is smooth on an NA setup, where as a turbo's power hits hard similar to a big rush of power. Depending on power output/suspension/rubber, that mostly creates traction issues.

A turbo car's powerband is wide, but powerband vs lag becomes an issue. If you choose a smaller turbo that doesn't lag between shifts, it would tend to lose its steam at higher RPM's. Choose a turbo that screams at high RPM and it suffers from boost lag and poor engine/boost response.

 

Tony the Tiger, didn't you have a 14:1 NA motor before? When did you switch FI?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Traction is certainly important and so is driver capability etc but generally speaking, if you had 2 identical cars pushing 200 hp and one was all motor while the other was forced induction, the FI car would always win the 1/4 mile drag race, all things being equal. This is because a forced induction car will always have a superior torque curve compared to a similar output all motor car.

This is a good example that shows that the engine that produces the highest AVERAGE hp/tq under the curve, will be the faster if everything else stays equal. Peak, like a persons height, is just a number, it's the amount of "muscle" underneath that mark/height that makes all the difference.</TD></TR></TABLE>

&lt;---- wants to know where u are getting that wacky weed cuz I want some!!! lol

no seriously though your theory sounds good. Unfortunately all-motor cars pushing the same WHP always rapes F/I cars! in my experience I dont know about u but I have never seen a F/I turbo car push 11s on 215 WHP! lol.

totally agree with Tony the tiger here

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Traction is certainly important and so is driver capability etc but generally speaking, if you had 2 identical cars pushing 200 hp and one was all motor while the other was forced induction, the FI car would always win the 1/4 mile drag race, all things being equal. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually the all motor car would kill the turbo guy ALL DAY LONG !!!!

 

thats what i like to hear !!! 215 whp doing 11's !!!!!! i am seriously considering doing the all motor thing now

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From my experiences, the all motor will win at the 1/4mile. The fact the an all motor setup does not have to wait for the power and never lags between shifts. All motor powerband is much easier to launch and hook up off the line, and the power comes on tap which allows much finer throttle control during launch to help traction.

The power transition is smooth on an NA setup, where as a turbo's power hits hard similar to a big rush of power. Depending on power output/suspension/rubber, that mostly creates traction issues.

A turbo car's powerband is wide, but powerband vs lag becomes an issue. If you choose a smaller turbo that doesn't lag between shifts, it would tend to lose its steam at higher RPM's. Choose a turbo that screams at high RPM and it suffers from boost lag and poor engine/boost response. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I actually asked the same question a while back, tony the tiger gets my vote.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by omgwtfhaxnub &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the info. anyone else have any more input ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, my friend went 12.90's on drag radials with 181whp in an all motor CRX. I have yet to see a boosted car with only 181whp go that fast. All motor cars generally has a fat powerband so most of the power hit the pavement efficiently.

Sam

 

[QUOTE=00Red_SiR]Traction is certainly important and so is driver capability etc but generally speaking, if you had 2 identical cars pushing 200 hp and one was all motor while the other was forced induction, the FI car would always win the 1/4 mile drag race, all things being equal.[QUOTE=00Red_SiR]

i also think that a 200whp n/a car will beat a 200whp f/i car...because i think the turbo powerband is alot more narrow compared to the n/a's broad powerband...the turbo car might pull a little bit, but then he'll have to shift and drop out of that powerband.

 

in otherwise the same exact car, a turbo setup will also be heavier. negligible? probably. but it depends on how heavy said car is to begin with and its effect on the power/weight ratio.

 

Guys, this isn't rocket science, it's plain fact. As I said above, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, a boosted car will be faster, pushing equal power. Traction, weight, driver, lag (which I disagree with being much of a factor in a properly built and tuned engine) etc aren't factors because I took them out of the equation. When I said all things being equal I meant that if you were to take a car pushing 200 hp all motor and run it down the track, then pull the engine and drop an FI engine in there of the same displacement and 200 hp power output it would be the faster of the 2 down the strip. WHY? It's simple. It's a well known fact that if you take two similar all motor engines and compare them on the dyno and see that they both make similar peak hp, it's the engine that makes the highest AVERAGE power that will be faster. That's why we all look at headers and cams so closely, trying to find the ones that will give us the widest powerband possible, so our cars will be faster. FI gives cars very fat power bands, that's why it's so popular and it's also why it cost's so much more money to make the same amount of power all motor.

Don't believe me? ask any reputable engine builder.

 

true about the breadth of the powerband, but if your gearing is right, then that becomes less of an issue at the strip. a broader powerband benefits more at an auto-x or road course where you are forced below your optimal powerband, but a turbo honda for those uses is a double edged sword and another story.


Modified by redrum eg6 at 10:57 PM 3/16/2005

 

If you take two of the same cars one with FI motor and other with N/A motor both making 200WHP, the allmotor car will kill the FI motor down the 1320.

I'm gonna go with Tony the Tiger on this one.

Another thing is that bulding a 250WHP allmotor engine, will cost you the same as building 400WHP Forced Induction engine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Guys, this isn't rocket science, it's plain fact. As I said above, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, a boosted car will be faster, pushing equal power. Traction, weight, driver, lag (which I disagree with being much of a factor in a properly built and tuned engine) etc aren't factors because I took them out of the equation. When I said all things being equal I meant that if you were to take a car pushing 200 hp all motor and run it down the track, then pull the engine and drop an FI engine in there of the same displacement and 200 hp power output it would be the faster of the 2 down the strip. WHY? It's simple. It's a well known fact that if you take two similar all motor engines and compare them on the dyno and see that they both make similar peak hp, it's the engine that makes the highest AVERAGE power that will be faster. That's why we all look at headers and cams so closely, trying to find the ones that will give us the widest powerband possible, so our cars will be faster. FI gives cars very fat power bands, that's why it's so popular and it's also why it cost's so much more money to make the same amount of power all motor.

Don't believe me? ask any reputable engine builder.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your scenario will never happen because turbochargers will always have lag. You are talking about the impossible. A turbo is driven by exhaust gases.

A turbocharger that is sized acordingly to build boost quick and "lesser" lag will mostly run out of breath at high RPM's. A turbocharger that can push big power up top will always have lag issues and poor boost response. You can probably find a turbo that is somewhere in between, but hell no it won't be anywhere near to NA response. Although we have very well designed and newly engineered turbos which gets better by the day, I haven't been inside a turbo setup that runs like an all motor setup. Not even close.

I don't just speak out of nowhere. Look at what I have dealt with in the past. From a 219 WHP 12.5:1 CR 1.8L all motor setup, to a 2.0L 14.5:1 CR 230ish WHP all motor setup, and now I am trying to break the barriers of turbo boost lag with my current high compression 11.5:1 CR, GT28RS dual ballbearing turbo @ 12 psi and ITB's. I even had a good taste of huge big power turbos in my current T66 Camry V6 and I sure know what lag is. If you want to compare turbo power to NA power, it's not even in the same league. NA is a setup that can yield instant engine response and effectively use the power that is available. Which brings back to what the folks were talking earlier with all motor setups running very insane ET's.

Oh, what does an engine builder know about powerbands anyway? Generally, we should be asking a reputable tuner instead

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tommy69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Another thing is that bulding a 250WHP allmotor engine, will cost you the same as building 400WHP Forced Induction engine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is about the only thing you said that I agree with.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Your scenario will never happen because turbochargers will always have lag. You are talking about the impossible. A turbo is driven by exhaust gases.

A turbocharger that is sized acordingly to build boost quick and "lesser" lag will mostly run out of breath at high RPM's. A turbocharger that can push big power up top will always have lag issues and poor boost response. You can probably find a turbo that is somewhere in between, but hell no it won't be anywhere near to NA response. Although we have very well designed and newly engineered turbos which gets better by the day, I haven't been inside a turbo setup that runs like an all motor setup. Not even close.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Turbo chargers may have some lag but in every turbo car I've built or drove in was minimal at best and certainly wasn't lacking anything in the top end. If you're going to say that lag is that big a deal on an FI car, then I would argue that most Honda's "lag" before VTEC kicks in. If you don't launch an all motor car properly so it comes off the line in VTEC, you're gonna have crappy 1/4 mile times. Like a boosted car, once it's in boost/VTEC, it doesn't lag, even between shifts. The fact is lag is NOT a realistic issue on modern, properly set up and tuned FI cars, at least not enough to really slow them down a measurable amount or no one would be doing it. Certainly it's not worse than waiting for VTEC to kick in.

The scenario I was referring to is hardly impossible. If you take one 200hp all motor engine out of your car, modify it to increase the torque 30 ft lbs across the entire torque curve but kept your peak HP the same. Dropped the engine back in your car, are you going to tell me that the car wouldn't be any faster than it was before??? That's what you are saying when you deny the fact that an FI engine will have a MUCH fatter torque curve than an equal hp all motor car. The laws of physics will dictate that it will be faster. Any reputable engine builder knows that torque is what gets you down the 1/4 mile the quickest and it's a well known fact that an FI motor generates a far superior torque and power curve to a NA engine.

 

in my own experience, two 200whp cars of the same weight: allmotor wins in the 1320.

Why? Torque.

Allmotor honda's make so much less torque. Torque is good, but only so much as your traction will afford you.

So the turbo car spins off the line, whereas the allmotor car hooks up. Then the turbo car comes catching back up, but not until 4th gear... too late! mph is higher, but et not as good...

of course lag comes into play... much more so than we realize. transient response = t3h sux!

 

Well if this was the case I guess the fastest import drag race record holders should be all motor and not boosted then. I love all motor set ups but for some reason I have no problem accepting the reality that a boosted engine will make superior power and will be a faster vehicle, all things being equal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Guys, this isn't rocket science, it's plain fact. As I said above, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, a boosted car will be faster, pushing equal power. Traction, weight, driver, lag (which I disagree with being much of a factor in a properly built and tuned engine) etc aren't factors because I took them out of the equation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you can take the driver, lag, and weight out of the equation, but why would you take traction out of the equation? that's one thing an NA setup has over FI...that's like saying that you're gonna take torque out of the equation, because the topic of this thread is..."all motor HP vs. turbo HP in the quarter".

 

I agree with alot of Tony the tigers points but heres my opinion...

-The all motor cars makign 200+ are some of the more hardcore all motor guys. Usually have stripped out cars and have them dialed in at the track on slicks. The turbo guys that are only making 200-250whp usually have full interior daily drivers that are hardly setup to run at the track.

-I dont' think lag has anything to do with it. Setup right you can leave the line building boost and not fall outa full boost between shift. Thats if drag racing is your concern...someone with a mild 250whp turbo car im sure isn'jt too concerned. If anything the power deliever of a turbo car is what hurts its et. A non prepped car will just blow the tires off when boost hits...

-Once again if you saw more people being content with what they can get outa there turbo car et wise @ 225-250whp you would see alot of similar times to the all motor guys. Most get sick of the power fast and upgrade to 400+ setups after a few months or so. Look at some of the guys that can really drive running 11.6-11.8's with stock b16 making 250whp in FULL INTERIOR cars. Or Beerbongskickass running 12.6's in a Full interior coupe with a stock sohc turbo. There et's and traps show a similar relationship to that of an all motor car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well if this was the case I guess the fastest import drag race record holders should be all motor and not boosted then. I love all motor set ups but for some reason I have no problem accepting the reality that a boosted engine will make superior power and will be a faster vehicle, all things being equal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

we're not talking about the fastest imports...we're talking about equal whp...of course it's easier to make more whp with turbo...