I’ve heard of using “left foot braking” technique would help FF cars to prevent understeering at corners. Is that true? It makes sense to me since weight is transferred to the front. Does anyone use this technique on the track? Is that one of the “must have” (ex: Heel & Toe) technique to get better track time?

Thanks,
CS

 

Somewhat helpful discussion here.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=112336

 

A technique is only must have if it works well for you. I have used left foot braking in AutoX on tight corners where the car won't turn or if I blew the braking zone and went in too hot.

I don't use LFB on a road course much at all though.

The thread Adam posted in a good read on braking techniques though.

 

I have been using left foot braking on the track for the last year and a half. And I personally would consider it a "must have" in my book (right up there with heel & toe). Left foot braking is especially benificial when you are entering a turn which does not require a downshift (not to say that it cannot be done when downshifting). The reason that it is benificial in this situation is because you can make a "faster" and "smoother" transition between braking and accelerating. You can also be working the brakes and the accelerator at the same time.

Now, left foot braking takes a lot of pratice to feel comfortable. I'm not sure about your left foot but mine was only used to working much like an ON-OFF switch. It took a while before I was able to modulate the brake the same way with my left foot the same way as I did with my right foot. My wife's car (Honda Odyssey) has an automatic transmission and I found this a perfect opportunity to practice left foot braking. It actually took me a complete fall, winter and spring of practicing before I felt comfortable and it became second nature.

Now, there was a discussion in the past about this topic and several people stated that they either didn't like it or the didn't find any advantage to it. As a matter of fact several professional drivers do not use left foot braking, so the technique is not for everyone. But I would recommend giving it a try. As I mentioned earlier, it going to feel different at first, but with a little practice and patience you might like it.

 

Thanks for everyone's input,

BSQ - since u mention that u use LFB in corners that doesn't require downshift, so I assume u don't hard-braking with u left foot as well.

In conclusion, LFB is mainly beneficary for maintaining speed and balance of the car in entering corners without scarifying the time in transition from throttle to brake. Think I get it.... like u said, it's time to practice on my auto tran. car.....

knowing the theory is easy but applying is always a different story haha...

thanks everyone
CS

 

I do use LFB when braking hard. But it takes a little bit more foot work when LFB when you have to downshift. I used LFB on the back straight at Mid-Ohio which requires a fair amount of braking. Here is the sequence of events: full throttle, heel & toe downshift, LFB, gradually release brakes, start applying throttle. The reason that I LFB was because I was still carrying a lot of speed after downshifting and I could make an easier transition to accelerating when I used LFB.

So you can see that the foot work would be easier if you do not have to downshift.

 

Hmm, next step is clutchless downshifts! then you can LFB without needing to heel-toe I can sorta do it at low RPMs, but it's HARD!

 

I've asked Scott Zellner if Bob Endicott or Pierre or Hugh left foot brake - he said no. I've watched Bob at Elkhart Lake, and Pierre and Hugh at Las Vegas and Portland and never saw any of them do it.

It is my belief that if you have the need to do this on your G3 Integra variant you should instead revise your distribution of roll resistance toward more rear.

Additionally, I can't think of anything I'd rather not do with the brakes on any G3 including a Type-R than to use them more than necessary to slow the car.

Scott, who knows there are probably "top" Japanese drivers running stiff springs in the front who left foot brake, but I don't care...

 

I would agree. I use LFB in AutoX becuase my car is setup like *** and doesn't like to turn. Plus the speeds are lower and turns generaly much sharper then on a circuit. On track, I am a firm believer that after you have turned in, if you are doing much more then getting in the gas and doing minor corrections with the streeting, you have blown the turn and should try something different the next time around.

Zsolt, who has yet to be shown any kind of proof as to what setups "top" Japanese race teams/drivers use.

 

I think there are two discussions going on here: I am not saying this is _the_ definition but using your left foot to brake and left foot braking are two different actions. I would say that driving into a turn under power and using your left foot on the brake to create rotation at some point _after_ turn-in is left foot braking. If you are downshifting then switching to your left foot to continue braking still prior to turn-in (I don't understand this but that is very easily my failing) you are just very co-ordinated. I am rather confident that the former is what Scott and Zsolt are talking about.

Then again, I am oft wrong about a good number of things so . . . .


[Modified by phat-S, 5:29 PM 1/21/2002]

 

No, what is being confused here is left foot braking and trail braking...Left foot braking is simply that...using your left foot to brake at any time. Trail braking is draging the brakes after turn in to allow you to go into a corner faster and often times produce more rotation while in the corner.

As for me...I like to left foot brake in autocrosing. It allows me to dive further into a corner because the transition between braking and acceleration is smoother. Now, this does not mean it is right for everyone. I kow a lot of top drivers that do LFB and a lot that don't. It really comes down to what youare more comfortable with. I have to say that having the option to use it if needed in a particualr corner is benificial. What I mean by this is that you can not set a car up so that it is perfect in both sweepers and transitions....you usually will look at a course and adjust the suspension to handle the characteristics for that particular course. So if you have a course that is mostly transitions (slaloms or offsets) then you stiffen the cars front end to allow for quicker transtions. However, the car then will not handle the sweepers as well. Almost never is a course completely transitions or completely sweepers, so you have to compromise. And having a broad variety of driving techniques to handle and make the most out of these comprimsies is the difference in winning and losing a lot of the time. If you have that one sweeper in a course that the rest is transitions, you can set the car up to be very fast through the transitions and trail brake into the sweeper, to help in the rotation. Now you may not be the fastest through that particular corner, but you are faster through the rest and that will be the difference. Just my thoughts.

EC


[Modified by Crosser, 5:02 PM 1/21/2002]

 

I agree, some people are talking about left foot braking and some are talking about trail braking. What I have been talking about is left foot braking. The only time that I use my right foot for braking is when I'm heel toeing.

I made a reference earlier to some professional race car drivers not using LFB. Jacques Villeneuve is one F1 driver that I'm aware of that does not use LFB. But think about it, an F1 race car would be perfect setup for LFB. A F1 doesn't have a clutch so you only have a brake pedal and accelerator, so it makes sense to have your left foot on the brake pedal and the right foot on the accelerator. But if JV (and a couple other F1 drivers) doesn't LFB, then maybe it isn't for everyone.

Left foot braking like, heel toeing, shuffle steering, etc...they all have there benefits, but some people either learn to drive efficiently without them and feel comfortable. Some or all of these driving technique may or may not be for you.

 

How do you left foot brake a clutch shifted car? You guys must be super coordinated. I could see doing it in an autocross setting where you might not need to downshift, but on a roadcourse what does your braking/downshift procedure look like? help me out on this one...

 

you don't always need to use the clutch on a clutch shifted car

 

I agree with Crosser.. I do trail braking (with left foot ) at autocross, and because I'm not really very good at autox, it has helped me quite a bit several times. I often overshoot the corners because I'm on the stock tires and I'm to dense to really grok slow in, fast out a lot of the time. A little bit of brake application without altering throttle can help decrease a plow-out for me. Lifting throttle usually results in me powering back on too much and lighting up the inside wheel (GS-R -> open diff + bad driver).

If I'm not making a myriad mistakes, trail braking can help me rotate, because there's only so much suspension tuning you can do with tire pressure and off the shelf Koni's (stock class), and STS is quite Subaru dominated around here.

I'm not coordinated enough to double clutch then LFB, so it's either a shift or LFB for me. not both..

I don't Open Track the car, so..

One thing I noticed, though.. it seemed like at the end of one run at one of the autocrosses I was doing a lot of trail braking, I experienced a touch of brake fade. I don't know how prone stock pads are to fade, or whether I may have just been stupidly dragging the brakes for the entire run (don't think so.. it was a quick run), or what.. but generally as RR98ITR pointed out, trail braking puts more strain on your brakes.. if they're gonna fade, it will increase it.

Man I hope I can find the time/fundage to go to Evolution this year..

 

I'd like to start off... let's remember these are advanced topics - not for the beginner.

95% of the time I LFB, I am trail braking. 80% of the time I LFB, I am also easing on the trottle (or barely lifting) so I don't have to re-build engine rpms on track out/corner exit. Also, I use LFB to control wheelspin on long sweepers (CMP's carousel, T1 at VIR) and to rotate the car (I drive a Mustang). I know that some of this has been touched on already... just adding... but on higher horsepower RWD cars, LFB is very beneficial. Actually, I don't see where in any car it would not be useful. Anytime you can come out of 6 out of 14 corners (where LFB will actually be worth the effort - if you have time to heel/toe THEN LFB, you're going too slow, IMO) with 200-300 more rpms, netting you ~0.1 sec per corner (because of high exit speed - don't have to build rpms), LFB is of the utmost importance on any track with any car.

If the guy who took me T3 at CMP to clue me in on finally using LFB is reading this, don't laugh too hard at me...


[Modified by svt_coupe, 7:06 AM 1/22/2002]

 

To start off with I use aftermarket pedal covers which have a larger surface area. This helps to facilitate heel & toe downshifts (H&TD), because the brake and accelerator are closer together. When I H&TD I place the left-half of my right foot squarely on the brake and the right-half of my right foot squarely on the accelerator. FWIW, for me to blip the throttle when H&TD, I just roll the right-half of my foot towards the accelerator. Since I have the left-half of my right on the brake pedal, this allows me to place the right-half of my left foot on the brake pedal. When I'm done H&TD I transition my right foot off of the brake pedal and onto the accelerator and at the same time transition my left foot squarely the brake pedal and complete my braking and transition to accelerating.

It does take some coordination (and some practice) to smoothly accomplish this. It also helps to wear a pair of racing shoes which has thin soles (it may also help that I wear a size 9 shoe). I would never have even attempted this, but I rode with an very good instructor at HPDE and he was a very big advocate of LFB. I spent 90% of a 30-minute session watching his LFB and his footwork, it really enlightened me as to it's benefits. The instructor drove a mid-'80s race prepare VW GTI Rabbit, which doesn't have a tremendous amount of power, and he stated that he wanted to "get on the power" as soon as possible and "stay in the power" as long as possible. This was one of the main reasons that he adovated LFB and it also made for a smoother and faster transition between braking and accelerating.

 

"Stay in the power for as long as possible..." I could not agree more.

 

ok, I won't mention any names then

yoshi - who can LFB, but kinda hesitant about applying it at the 'big' track"

 

The only place that I have find that I need to do this was on the back straight at Mid-Ohio before entering the Esses. I was reaching a indicated speed between 118-120 mph before braking for the Esses, so I found that I was carrying a lot of speed and momentum. I was in 4th gear before I heel & toe downshifted into 3rd gear. I found that I needed to LFB slightly (probably < 1 sec.) to settle the car after H&TD into 3rd gear before getting back on the throttle.

Any other time I'm either staying in the same gear and just LFB or H&TD into a lower gear before getting back into the throttle.

 

got ya... my thinking was that if you did both when entering a [lower speed] corner, you'd lose time in the transition. Therefore, if you could execute it properly, you'd have to be going to slow. But, I see where you're coming from here...

this is good stuff...

 

Yoshi,

Go ahead and mention them, and tell us about it - I don't read Japanese so good.

I would love to read a detailed description of the rationale behind what we refer to as the JDM setup - but it would have to be a detailed technical analysis that addressed dynamic corner weight control and lateral weight transfer. Short testimonials, driver sound bites, and product data tables would not compose much of an argument.

The key thing for me about these setups is that King tried out the JDM setup and couldn't find as much speed in it and the driver feedback was negative. The only place I can see it working out to be of any advantage is in really tight pack racing where everyone is defensive and charging the corners on an early apex (where scrubbing off speed in a stable fashion would be attractive) - then turning each straight into a drag race with a lower entering speed.

To simply choose one approach without any regard for the chassis physics (which are the same on this whole planet) is not very enlightened. I've made my case in some detail, but a minimum level of education is required to understand it. I myself started my studies on the subject because I wanted to figure out what was going on so I could choose which route to take.

Scott, who is not dogmatic, just determined to be rational....and isn't interested in being a copy cat....

 

Scott:
i could mention them, but my only jdm style setup and techniques only come from BM which doesn't get very techinical; if at all (BM does have a special vdo where they 'teach' specifically FF driving techniques and setups. As soon as I can locate one, I'll post up some translations.) But from everything I've seen or read so far, it comes no where near your detailed technical analysis.

yoshi - who is USDM so he'll use USDM setup


btw: does anyone know of any japanese board similar to this? maybe I can jump in there and find out something there. *shrugs*

 

Yoshi,

Sounds great - if you can come up with that teaching video maybe we can do a H-T translation/lesson thread.

Scott, who thinks a USDM ripoff of the BM concept could have at least 100 regular subscribers - and with sharing and all at least several thousand regular viewers - to bad it would make no commercial sense then at all...

 

Just edit together in-car cameras, get a couple people to add in face-aimed cams and foot-aimed cams and a few on-track cameras for footage during ECHC (sorry Scott).. sell it on VHS.