helical or clutch??


i have driven both and definatly felt like the clutch lsd was doing more to help me than the helical. i have also driven a viscous which also felt alot better than the helical, but my helica diff is just a stock ITR one, and i havent ever driven on a Quaife.

so which would be better for the times, and does the ITR feel any different than the Quaife?

 

Have you considered the cost of servicing or rebuilding a "clutch type" LSD?

 

I bought the new KAAZ-built unit for the Golf but based on what I know about autocrossing - not a LOT - I'd think hard about a Quaiffe-type diff. Reasons?

** Car is way more likely to see street time
** You don't have to worry about jumping curbs or other activities that break traction on one tire
** You are likely to see much tighter corners

K

 

this is for RR, i have a daily that will remain open diff'd

my car that i will put it in is under a cover with a oem itr, and that crap sucks on hairpins or when i lift a wheel

 

For a track driven FF car, I'd probably go with a clutch type if it wasn't going to be driven that often.

For a FR car, I like some of the characteristics of helicals a bit more. A clutch type can "lock" a bit too aggressively and cause some corner entry understeer, while a FF car that'll probably pull you through the corner better(if you have the grip to put the power down). I have an S15 Spec R helical in my 240SX, and it feels like it gave me a bit more rotation with the go pedal in every phase of cornering - very fun, and pretty transparent. My car is also street driven some, so I didn't want to be looking at a toasted clutch pack LSD after 5-10k miles.

 

gttt for more opinionns

 

A couple fellas here are considering switching to Clutch because they were unhappy with the amount of power transfer of the Quaife.

They want something where they can determine the load and lockup.

I am partial to the Quaife but I think when it comes down to it I am going to buy a Clutch LSD from my ITA car because I want to try something new. It really is a preference issue. Quaife (torsen) and Kaaz (clutch) are units/companies with good reps and I think the difference would really be how YOU like it.

 

I have no objective data for a helical diff, but I have driven multiple cars with torsen diffs.

Solo2 DS ITR Observations:
(this was a Nationally Competitive ITR, it was set-up well, and is a proven winner)
-on the faster, more sweeperish corners you could really lay into the throttle and feel the diff start to pull you around.
-you have to be nice to get the diff to work for you. you can't be all "asses and elbows" and expect the diff to save your no-talent-***. Smooth is the operative word. In fact, I actually drove the car in much the same manner that you would drive an open diff FWD car and wound up faster.
-on really low speed, tight corners you will notice some wheelspin. I don't know if part of this was because I was in a Stock ITR on stock springs, but in first gear corners you get *some* wheelspin.

2000 Si
(loosely set-up for DSP, Quaife, koni's/GCs, TeamSlowDotOrg's old car)
-feels pretty close to the ITR in sweeper type turns
-again, you have to be nice to the diff if you want the diff to work for you, no "asses and elbows!"
-in this situation there was less wheelspin in the slower, tighter corners. I don't know how much of this is attributed to the design of the quaife vs ITR helical, or due to the significantly stiffer suspension on the Si
-the only quirk I ran into was on the launch. the particular autocross course was set-up with a turn right outta the gates, and at the line you had the wheels turned slightly, which resulted in some wheelhop.

Hopefully Rodney will chime in and tell us about his ATS diff. We all know how he feels about the way his ATS diff loves his axles

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oem itr, and that crap sucks on hairpins or when i lift a wheel</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's bullshit. Try being a bit smoother if you think you are getting wheelspin because you lifted a wheel.

Or stop launching the gators if you are talking about lifting a front wheel

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or stop launching the gators if you are talking about lifting a front wheel </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

actually, the car hass a wheel lifting issue everywhere, even on the street.

theres a right hand corner on my way to work and every day it lifts a wheel there,

someone suggested it might be my front swaybar...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">someone suggested it might be my front swaybar...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Was you front sway bar made out of a flag pole?

 

Sounds like the bar's binding up to me.

I really liked my Quaife, like a lot. I really want to try a Honda with a clutch diff that's set up aggressively to see what it's like. I bet it's nice, but I wouldn't want to hassle with the hassle. I'm not looking forward to servicing the mazdacomp diff for the Miata (which pisses me off because the 1.8's get to use factory diffs...)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rice_classic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Was you front sway bar made out of a flag pole? </TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL

 

I've driven both, I have a Kaaz in my CRX, and have driven freinds ITR's, and ITR powered EG hatchbacks. I think the biggest thing is that the diff needs to suit your driving style. If you are agressive and can handle a slightly out of control car, the clutch diff will suit you well as it makes swinging the rear a little easier and seemingly more under control. I have also felt the stock diff actually pop in and out (and there's definitely some wheelspin there) when driven overly aggresive, to the point that it almost felt like it was breaking (maybe it was ). To make the stock diff do what a clutch will do it feels like you have to really over drive the car. I feel like I can drive my CRX easier and acheive some of the same speeds and manuvers of the OEM diff without really pushing.
Then there's the maitenance There's always some tradeoff

 

When it comes to a race-only car you have to give the service intervals some more thought.

If you are like many of the racers around here you will have your transmission out at least once a season (before, after, during) and during that time you can check the diff. Once the tranny is out of the car it doesn't take that much time/effort to crack the case and inspect/service things.

I am under the impression that a KAAZ can last (without servicing) up to 3 seasons or so? (depending on the quantity of racing or course) Is this assumption reasonably accurate?

 

I went with the KAAZ because I got a rediculous deal on a new, unused one. After a long talk with Rodney I decided that it will be fine maintenance wise if you just change the fluid once a year and only use KAAZ or ATS fluid. I think he told me that his has gone a few autocross seasons and 20,000 street miles with no maintenance but a fluid change every year. The only street milage my Integra will see is too and from the auto-x site and the race track so I'm not too worried about noise or anything like that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rice_classic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Was you front sway bar made out of a flag pole? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sig line material...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">actually, the car hass a wheel lifting issue everywhere, even on the street.

theres a right hand corner on my way to work and every day it lifts a wheel there,

someone suggested it might be my front swaybar...</TD></TR></TABLE>

You only street drive the car anyway. You shouldn't even be worrying about this question with your use of the car. Once you start auto-xing or track driving then worry about it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have no objective data for a helical diff, but I have driven multiple cars with torsen diffs.

Solo2 DS ITR Observations:
(this was a Nationally Competitive ITR, it was set-up well, and is a proven winner)
-on the faster, more sweeperish corners you could really lay into the throttle and feel the diff start to pull you around.
-you have to be nice to get the diff to work for you. you can't be all "asses and elbows" and expect the diff to save your no-talent-***. Smooth is the operative word. In fact, I actually drove the car in much the same manner that you would drive an open diff FWD car and wound up faster.
-on really low speed, tight corners you will notice some wheelspin. I don't know if part of this was because I was in a Stock ITR on stock springs, but in first gear corners you get *some* wheelspin.

2000 Si
(loosely set-up for DSP, Quaife, koni's/GCs, TeamSlowDotOrg's old car)
-feels pretty close to the ITR in sweeper type turns
-again, you have to be nice to the diff if you want the diff to work for you, no "asses and elbows!"
-in this situation there was less wheelspin in the slower, tighter corners. I don't know how much of this is attributed to the design of the quaife vs ITR helical, or due to the significantly stiffer suspension on the Si
-the only quirk I ran into was on the launch. the particular autocross course was set-up with a turn right outta the gates, and at the line you had the wheels turned slightly, which resulted in some wheelhop.

Hopefully Rodney will chime in and tell us about his ATS diff. We all know how he feels about the way his ATS diff loves his axles
</TD></TR></TABLE>

How close in design/function are Quaiffes and Torsens?

From my own experience with the Torsens, they're gonna suck if you lift a wheel in a turn. They have no preload, therefore nothing to bias torque against and will spin the inside tire. Of course the easy thing to do is blame the diff. But, its not the diff's fault, but rather the suspension setup.

Do Quaiffes exhibit the same characteristics?

 

quaife=torsen

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUJonathan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How close in design/function are Quaiffes and Torsens?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">quaife=torsen</TD></TR></TABLE>

and yes, if an inside tire unloads too much (ie leaves the ground) a quaife very quickly turns into an open diff.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUJonathan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

From my own experience with the Torsens, they're gonna suck if you lift a wheel in a turn. They have no preload, therefore nothing to bias torque against and will spin the inside tire. Of course the easy thing to do is blame the diff. But, its not the diff's fault, but rather the suspension setup.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Like you said, if you're lifting an inside drive wheel in a turn (in anything except a rally) you have other, larger problems such as:

-you drive too much like .RJ and launch every gator and curb OR
-you have serious suspension binding going on

 

for the record, what Kaaz application are people using for ITA crx's? I didn't see any cable d-series application listed on kaazusa.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Like you said, if you're lifting an inside drive wheel in a turn (in anything except a rally) you have other, larger problems such as:

-you drive too much like .RJ and launch every gator and curb OR
-you have serious suspension binding going on </TD></TR></TABLE>

*Shrug*
Pretty much every EC/MW track I've driven on "required" me to launch the car off the gators for a faster lap time...faster even with the resultant wheelspin (torsen diff here)...

Nazareth being an exception....and Pocono not having any gators.