The k20a1 is the 160hp civic si motor and the a2 is the rsx-s motor right? Well, if they arent...you still know what im talking about.
My question is...why would honda not just put the a2 into the civic si and give it 40 more horses to better please its customers? I mean...im sure they dont cost much different to manufacture, and theyre still nearly the same motor. 160/130 out of a 2.0 is kind weak for the newer sis....especially when the b16 in the previous gen made 170 out of only a 1.6. What is hondas issue with the new sis? I might be getting a new car soon...and i really want an 05 rsx s for its now 210 hp motor...but i cant afford it...so ill have to settle for 160hp out of almost the same motor. What the hell honda?

 

Old Si's were rated 160 at the flywheel.

If Honda put the a2 in the Si, they would be competing against sales with the RSX-S prior to '05. The EP3 is either admired a lot or hated a lot; there are no middle ground takers. Thus, sales for the EP3 were terrible in the US. So, they didn't really pay much attention to something that wasn't selling all that well. "HFP" was their solution to this problem.

k20a3 is the EP3/base RSX motor
k20a2 is the 02-04 RSX-S motor
k20z is the 05 RSX-S motor

The difference between the a3 and the a2 is the head, the cams, the block oil orifices

 

yea..thats one thing a lot of people dont like about the ep, is the performance. but if honda did it at least 180hp, then that would be a different story. but eh, honda didnt do what i told them..haha..

 

well, im prolly getting an 05 si anyway. Its still a decent motor right? Anything special i should know about it?

 

You meant to say k20a3 .. that is the civic Si motor


The K20A3 does not have a standard DOHC VTEC valvetrain as we know it from the B-series engines - the K20A3 should actually be called a "DOHC i-VTEC-E" engine, because it uses a VTEC-E cam setup. The K20A2 is the "real" DOHC i-VTEC engine, utilizing the standard DOHC VTEC cam setup we're all familiar with. To help you understand the differences between the K20A2 and K20A3 engines, I've included the following information from a post I made elsewhere:

Allow me to evaluate. Let's start out by defining some terms:

VTEC - Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control. At low RPM, a VTEC engine uses a normal cam profile to retain a smooth idle, good fuel economy, and good low-end power delivery. The VTEC mechanism engages a high-lift, long-duration "race" cam profile at a set RPM value (i.e., ~5500RPM on the B16A) to increase high-end power delivery.

VTEC-E - Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control for Efficiency. This system isn't really VTEC as we know it. At low RPM, the VTEC-E mechanism effectively forces the engine to operate as a 12-valve engine - one of the intake valves does not open fully, thus decreasing fuel consumption. At a set RPM value (i.e., ~2500RPM in the D16Y5), the VTEC-E mechanism engages the 2nd intake valve, effectively resuming operation as a normal 16-valve engine. Note: in a VTEC-E engine, there are no high-RPM performance cam profiles; this engine is supposed to be tuned for fuel economy, right?

VTC - Variable Timing Control. This is a mechanism attached to the end of the intake camshaft only which acts as a continuously variable cam gear - it automatically adjusts the overlap between the intake and exhaust cams, effectively allowing the engine to have the most ideal amount of valve overlap in all RPM ranges. VTC is active at all RPMs.

i-VTEC - intelligent Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control. This is a combination of both the VTEC and the VTC technologies - in other words, i-VTEC = VTEC + VTC. Currently, the only engines that use the i-VTEC system are the DOHC K-series engines.

Now this is where things get tricky - Honda uses the term "DOHC i-VTEC" for two different systems: The first system is used in the K20A2 engine of the RSX Type-S. The second system is used in the K20A3 engine of the Civic Si.

The First System (K20A2):

This system is pretty close to the older DOHC VTEC engines. At low RPM, the K20A2 uses a normal cam profile to retain a smooth idle, good fuel economy, and good low-end power delivery. At 5800RPM, its VTEC mechanism engages a high-lift, long-duration "race" cam profile to increase high-end power delivery. The only difference between this i-VTEC engine and the older VTEC engines is the addition of the VTC system. The intake camshaft has the automatic self-adjusting cam gear which continuously optimizes valve overlap for all RPM ranges.

Here we see an image of the intake cam lobes of the K20A2. Notice there are 3 lobes; the two side lobes are the low-RPM profiles, and the center lobe is the high-lift, long-duration profile which engages at 5800RPM. Basically the same setup as the old VTEC engines we are familiar with.

Now here we see the VTC mechanism - the gear on the end of the intake cam that adjusts valve timing (overlap) automatically on the fly.

This system is used in engines powering the JDM Honda Integra Type-R, Civic Type-R, Accord Euro-R, and the USDM Acura RSX Type-S and TSX.

The Second System (K20A3):

This system does not really conform to the "DOHC i-VTEC" nomenclature, as Honda would like us to believe. As I mentioned in my previous post, it actually should be called "i-VTEC-E," because it uses a VTEC-E mechanism rather than a standard VTEC mechanism. At low RPM, the VTEC-E system effectively forces the engine to operate as a 12-valve engine - one of the intake valves does not open fully, thus decreasing fuel consumption. At 2200RPM, the VTEC-E system engages the 2nd intake valve, effectively resuming operation as a normal 16-valve engine. There are no high-RPM performance cam profiles; this engine is tuned to balance fuel economy and power, rather than provide pure performance. On the intake cam, there is the VTC mechanism which basically is an automatic self-adjusting cam gear used to continuously optimize the valve overlap for all RPM ranges. This being a VTEC-E system - and not a true DOHC VTEC system - is the reason the K20A3 redlines at a measly 6800RPM, while the K20A2 is able to rev all the way to 7900RPM.

Here we see an image of the intake cam lobes of the K20A3. Notice there are only 2 lobes - there is a nearly round one used only for the low-RPM disabled intake valve, and then there is the regular lobe used by the other valve at low-RPM and by both valves at high-RPM:

This system is used in engines powering the USDM Acura RSX base, Honda Civic Si, Accord 4-cylinder, CRV, and Element.

Special note: The K20A3 engine used in the Acura RSX base has a slightly different intake manifold design from the K20A3 engine used in the Civic Si. The RSX engine uses a dual-stage manifold, similar in concept to the manifold of the B18C1 in the old Integra GSR. It uses long intake runners at low-RPM to retain low end power, and switches at 4700RPM to a set of shorter intake runners to enhance high-end torque. This accounts for the extra 9 ft-lb of torque in the RSX (141 ft-lb, vs. 132 ft-lb in the Civic Si).

Here is an image showing just how this dual-stage manifold works. On the top, you can see the low-RPM (long) runners are in use, and on the bottom, you can see the high-RPM (short) runners in use.

Myths:

1. The i-VTEC engine engages VTEC gradually, and not suddenly like in the old VTEC engines.

Wrong. The i-VTEC engine "engages VTEC" at a single set RPM, like always. Whoever started this rumor is a fucktard. Read the definitions above.

2. VTC engages at a set RPM.

Wrong. VTC is always activated. Read under "VTC" above.

3. The K20A3 engages VTEC at 5000+ RPM.

Wrong. Technically, there is no "VTEC" (as we think of it) in the K20A3 engine - it uses a VTEC-E technology, which engages at 2200RPM. Read under "The Second Sytem" above

 

So basically. The k20a3 is a retard version of the a2 thats meant more for fuel economy? Do you think an rsx-s is worth the extra money over a civic si? Is the k20a3 still a decent motor for tuning? Do you think id be better off finding a used ek civic si?

 

You got your motors mixed up.

K20a3 with 160hp = Honda Civic Si and Base RSX
K20a2 with 200hp = 02-04 RSX type S and Type R Civic (not available in US)
K20z1 (if i remember correctly) with 210hp = 05 RSX type S
K20a with 220hp = Integra Type R (not available in US)

The a3 is still a good motor at its 160hp. Its what i got. Its a fun car to drive and is more then enough power for around the town driving. Plus its 30+ mpg on regular gas. Add a few bolt ons and hondata and you will be happy with it for sure Bonus of the Si is the handling, very good, especially with after market suspension.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TPreludeSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So basically. The k20a3 is a retard version of the a2 thats meant more for fuel economy? Do you think an rsx-s is worth the extra money over a civic si? Is the k20a3 still a decent motor for tuning? Do you think id be better off finding a used ek civic si? </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can get an Si for like 16-17k since they're slow sellers. A type s will cost you about 6k more. Plus the insurance and the premium gas. If you really want the power just go for the type s. No since driving around a car with regret. So 6k for 50 more hp, a 6spd, and the rsx body and interior. If you really want one look into a used type s, and hope some kid who was new to a manuel didnt drive it before you Its up to you bud, we cant make decisions, only offer our knowledge.

 

Some people would be happy with it. It depends on what you want, have experienced etc...

Honda is not selling enough of them, that is for sure. For a daily driver, it is a nice car with or wihout bolt ons.

Now assuming you want to drop major money to make it faster, it would be more economically feasible to swap the type s motor in it unless you come across a type s complete head for cheap which is hard since these heads are gold for everyone going the k24a/k20a2 route.

I would drive the type S and then test drive the Si. If you are lucky enough to know someone with a fast hybrid civic, I would test drive that too

 

As far as test driving goes...the honda dealer here doesnt even have any sis on the lot...id have to order one. The nearest acura dealer is like 5 hours away...so thats a no go. Whats the difference between the honda factory performance civic si and the standard civic si? Whats the price difference? Im leaning toward the civic because its cheaper...and i need a hatchback. Wouldnt the slow sales of the new sis make them deppreciate badly?

 

k20a3 is the si motor and dont get it just pony up the extra cash for the rsx ull be much happier

 

First of all Montana is beautiful.

Most cars are not an investment. The banks want you to believe they are assets before you buy them, but as soon as you do it they are a liability and you cannot get your money back.

Pardon me for to say this, but you would be a fool to buy a car without testdriving it. Go to ephatch.com or k-series.com or k20a.org and find someone who lives close to you that has one so you can see how it drives....

Nikos

 

of course id need to test drive...but i wanna get farther along in my decion making before making a long drive to test a car that i might hate.

 

i love how reople restate the obvious. after the 1st person corrected the original post, a dozen other people feel that they have to tell the person the same thing 12 more times. as if 1 time isn't enough, you have to add to it just as if you were trying to say hay i know, put me on the cool guy list of know-it-alls.

before you reply scroll down and make sure someone hasn't posted what you are about to post.

im too cool, and lazy to scroll. if i didn't see it in the 1st 3, it's not there.

i want to be cool, and show all of honda tech i know my ish, ill repost what everyone else is posting.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nikos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">First of all Montana is beautiful.

Most cars are not an investment. The banks want you to believe they are assets before you buy them, but as soon as you do it they are a liability and you cannot get your money back.</TD></TR></TABLE>
anything that takes money away from you is a liability. this includes the home that you own and live in

an asset is something that doesn't take money from you and earns you income

 

RSX-S=220 Hp K20A
EP3/base RSX= 200 hp K20A2

Thats what Honda should have done in the first place

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TPreludeSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So basically. The k20a3 is a retard version of the a2 thats meant more for fuel economy?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, not really. Although they're both K motors, the EP3 and DC5 Type S engine blocks are different, and many parts numbers are different.

It's not that the K20A3 was designed for fuel economy: It was designed specifically for the USDM Si.

If you like the EP3, don't worry so much. On paper, it might look like the HP is the same as the old '99 Si, but the driving experience is very different. It's a bigger, very torquey motor and it's a pleasant everyday driving experience even if you won't be out-dragging a Type R.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Do you think an rsx-s is worth the extra money over a civic si? </TD></TR></TABLE>
The 2005 USDM DC5 Type S is very nice, behaving completely differently from earlier Type S's. If you have the option of getting the 2005 DC5 Type S, I would do it. But don't fret about getting the EP3...it's hardly an inferior vehicle. We seem to all just want it to be 200HP or more.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is the k20a3 still a decent motor for tuning?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not necessarily the same way you'd be bulding other motors. As Nikos said, putting the Type S head on an A3 is a nice thing to do, and many people have done that. Remember that you'll have to do something w/a computer, though.

Perhaps the most economical way to get more power out of the A3 is one of the many supercharger or turbocharger kits that are available. In their milder forms, it's an economical 20 to 40 extra horses, and the motor's still fully reliable and doesn't require a lot of other parts bulding to get there.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Do you think id be better off finding a used ek civic si? </TD></TR></TABLE>
No, I do not.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TPreludeSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you think id be better off finding a used ek civic si? </TD></TR></TABLE>

What is an EK Civic Si? Last I checked, the 99-00 were EM1, whose B16 made 160@7600/111@7000, not 170 horsepower as you claim. Maybe you should research a little more before claiming that the K20A3 is weaker than the old Si's motor. Also, you said you need a hatch, which that car definitely isn't

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EtherGhost &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is an EK Civic Si? Last I checked, the 99-00 were EM1, whose B16 made 160@7600/111@7000, not 170 horsepower as you claim. Maybe you should research a little more before claiming that the K20A3 is weaker than the old Si's motor. Also, you said you need a hatch, which that car definitely isn't </TD></TR></TABLE>

Read above dude...that was corrected a long time ago...quit tryin to act like a know it all. When i was referring to 170 hp....i was talking about the jdm spec anyway. Read the rest of the posts before you act like a know it all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TPreludeSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Read above dude...that was corrected a long time ago...quit tryin to act like a know it all. When i was referring to 170 hp....i was talking about the jdm spec anyway. Read the rest of the posts before you act like a know it all. </TD></TR></TABLE>

like i said he read 1 or 2 replies and figured it wasn't covered, or like you said trying to be in the know-it-all-cool-guy-crowd.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Huggy Bear &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">like i said he read 1 or 2 replies and figured it wasn't covered, or like you said trying to be in the know-it-all-cool-guy-crowd. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Word

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nikos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Myths:

1. The i-VTEC engine engages VTEC gradually, and not suddenly like in the old VTEC engines.

Wrong. The i-VTEC engine "engages VTEC" at a single set RPM, like always. Whoever started this rumor is a fucktard. Read the definitions above.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think where this came from is the VTEC on B series, when engaged, it would engage hard and it was more aggressive on i-VTEC it is a smoother engagement and you don't feel the pull as much. I do believe that is from the VVT not the i-VTEC. If you look at dyno charts from B-series there is a power drop when VTEC is engaged but on the K20A2 it is a steady climb with no power drop. You meant to say k20a3 .. that is the civic Si motor

 

If you're considering the EP3 vs. the RSX, how much $ are you planning to put into it in the long run? The EP3 is a good deal from all the hate that you see...

Don't get an EK/EG etc... older hatch, the EP3 has the newest k-series platform, if you ever plan on doing mods, start from something new, even a 02-03 si used is a good deal.

My 02 Si embarassingly has a blue book value of 10,775$ with 25,000 miles on it... If used is an option, consider a swap, you can for the price of a new Si get a car like mine, swap a Integra Type R motor and tranny for 6 grand and call it a day... But there's nothing like a new car, and I can't say that I won't do it again...

If you get an RSX-S, there's not alot of incentive to swap or do alot to the motor, it's already got a very nice motor... The Si on the other hand you'll see everybody hooting and hollering about motor power ( at least on Ephatch)... To me, it's fast enough to get me in trouble... I seriously doubt you're gonna notice any big difference after driving either car for a few months...

To me, the EP3 is the nicest car I have ever owned. I've always wanted a hatch. the RSX... just another Integra to me... Check out ClubRSX and EPhatch and see what kinda people drive each car, if you plan to be in on the forums, you'll quickly see the difference... ok that probably doesn't do well judging the cars, but certainly the aura surrounding each car will become apparent.

Come back to Honda-tech when you need real information though )

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ocelaris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My 02 Si embarassingly has a blue book value of 10,775$ with 25,000 miles on it... </TD></TR></TABLE>

A partial legacy of the EP3's being one of the most unpopular Hondas in history.

We might want to take this opportunity to remind people that they should make sure their insurance policies cover the difference between what would be the appraised value of a totalled car and what the value of the loan would be. This could be a disastrous situation for a young person who gets into an accident and finds himself still owing his bank $5,000 or more after the payments are settled.

But you're right: That does leave a lot of room for spending money on performance modifications, or even a full swap of a K20A or K24A.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We might want to take this opportunity to remind people that they should make sure their insurance policies cover the difference between what would be the appraised value of a totalled car and what the value of the loan would be. </TD></TR></TABLE>

gap coverage y0! only available at time of purchase, thru a third party insurance agency, and progressive america, that i know of.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


It's not that the K20A3 was designed for fuel economy: It was designed specifically for the USDM Si.


</TD></TR></TABLE>
no because the 5 door hatchback overseas gets the same 160 hp k20 as we do here in our rsx's and ep3s