DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!!
01-29-2008, 08:10 AM
#1
DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!!
DIY: 11.1" Brakes on Civic DX knuckles. No need for EX or Integra knuckles!
This applies for:
1988-2000 Honda Civic DX LX VX HX CX models (don't know if HF will work)
1988-1995 Honda Civic Si without ABS (9.5" front brakes)
This will also work for any 88-00 Civic or 90-01 Integra that has DX Civic knuckles on it (9.5" brakes).
As some of you may have known, I'm nuts about brakes. Problem is that DX (and CX, LX, etc) with the 9.5” front brakes have a different shaped steering knuckle; the mounting tabs for the brakes are pulled in closer, so all of the brake options available for the big 4x100 hubs on the EX knuckles(which are a LOT of options) are not going to work on the DX knuckles. Well after enough testing and screwing with parts, I found out that the only upgrade you can put on DX knuckles was 10.3" brakes and ITR calipers. Well now I've figured out how to have the full 11.1" rotors on!
PRELUDE: This will cover how to convert your front 9.5" Honda brakes on the 88-00 Civic non-EX models into 11.1" CL front brakes. This upgrade will improve your braking performance. This setup offers a larger sweeping area, a very strong caliper, much larger pad, increased brake torque over a larger disc rotor, increased resistance to fade, and Honda reliability. This setup uses stock knuckles and stock brake hoses. If you are getting a kit from BrakeExpert, the modifications have been made and it is a bolt on uograde.
NECESSARY MODIFICATION: The rotors must be redrilled to 4x100 and custom aluminum rotor centering rings will be needed to ensure there is no radial vibration.. These redrilled rotors are safe because the lug stud holes have no sideways force exerted on them. The pressure from the lug nuts transfers throughout the whole face of the rotor's hat. The rotor is centered on the hub and the lug holes are there only to allow the studs to go through the rotor's hat and wheel's lug holes. The lug studs will not touch the rotor at all.
The rotors are a bit too tall and will hit the bracket when new. The bracket must be milled at the back where the knuckle mounting tabs are. Because this affects the caliper's contact angle, this machine work must be parallel like stock. A milling machine is required with a dial indicatior to ensure the cuts are each made the same depth to within .001". The brackets will not work stock, they will not bolt up to the knuckle and the hangar will lightly rub on the rotor's hat. The bracket should have a notch grinded at the backside to prevent it from hitting the knuckle. It should also be grinded carefully on the underside of the hangar to prevent this rubbing. I reccomend painting or coating this part to prevent any possibility of rust causing weakening over long periods of time. Also, since this is a custom setup and fitment is very tight, the retainer clips must be modified to have the part in the bracket's throat removed. This should be done with the proper dremel or metal cutting jig-saw very carefully. This is spring steel, which is difficult to cut, so be careful as a mis cut can cause the metal to break or crack in the middle.
Tools: 17mm wrench, 14mm wrench, 12mm wrench, phillips screwdriver, 19mm deep socket, socket wrench, 10mm wrench, torque wrench, rags, 10mm brake line wrench (optional), impact wrench (optional), ball scratcher (optional.)
INSTALLATION:
Ok so heres what's involved. 03 Acura CL front calipers, brackets and pads, 96 Prelude VTEC rotors, rotor centering rings, and machine work.
You will need access to a machine shop to make this work, or PM me (BrakeExpert) and I can take care of it for you.
1. Acquire all parts and tools.
2. Engage e-brake and put the car in Park or first. Jack up the nose of car and put the car on jackstands in the front.
3. Unbolt the lug nuts and remove the wheel.
4. Break the rotor retainer screws loose with the impact wrench. This may not be necessary if your screws are not rusted or you used anti-seize, but may be needed on older cars.
5. Remove the banjo bolt that connects the brake hose to the caliper. Now it gets messy, remember not to touch your car's paint with brake fluid on your hands.
6. Remove the 17mm bolts that hold the caliper to the steering knuckle. Remove the caliper.
7. Place the rotor centering ring on the hub.
8. Place the 11.1" rotor on the hub and use a lug nut to keep it in place.
9. Bolt the CL caliper with its brackets and pads onto the knuckle and torque the 17mm bolts to 80lb-ft.
10. Bolt the brake hose onto the caliper and torque to 30lb-ft if reusing your old crush washers. I reccomend new ones every time, but the old ones can get a second use if you overtighten just a bit (don't exceed 35lb-ft, you don't want to mess up these threads.
11. Pump the brake pedal enough to get the pads to clamp the rotor. The pedal will be soft since there is air in the system because it hasn't been bled yet.
12. Remove the lug nut and put the wheel on. Torque your lug nuts to 75lb-ft for aluminum wheels, 80lb-ft for steel wheels.
13. Do the same for the other side.
14. If you are upgrading the master cylinder, remove the MC by unbolting the 10mm bolts on the hardlines with a brake line wrench and then the 12mm bolts from the brake booster.
15. Bench bleed the master cylinder. If you are lazy and don't mind making a mess, fill the resovoir with brake fluid with the new MC out of the car. Use a screwdriver to push into the cylinder bore(EK/98+ Teg) or press on the piston if this is an EG/94-97 Teg. Do this about 6 times, fluid will gush out of the two holes.
16. Install the master cylinder onto the brake booster and tighten the 12mm bolts and then tighten the 10mm brake line bolts.
17. Your brakes are on. The new brakes must be bled. Use either a factory service manual for bleeding procedures, or check online for a standard bleeding procedure on hydraulic brakes. The proper bleeding order for Civics/Integras is Right Rear, then Left Front, then Left Rear, then Right Front. This is because of the crossed brake system; do not go by the method of fartest to closest (to the master cylinder). I reccomend bleeding the whole car, however if you are not changing the master cylinder (and you do not have ABS), you can bleed just the front brakes, however I reccomend bleeding all 4 brakes anyway.
18. Bleed the brakes.
19. Your brakes are on! Ensure the pedal can stop the car by removing the bricks, releasing the e-brake, and moving the car slightly. Stop the car with the pedal, if it does not stop, use the e-brake and check the brake system for bubbles by bleeding the car again.
20. Brake in your new brakes pads by standard brake pad brake in procedure. I reccomend finding an empty straightaway. Get the car upto 50mph and hit the brakes lightly, slowing the car to 10mph, but not to a complete stop. Do this about ten times, not giving your brakes time to cool in between. Your brakes will be pretty warm afterwards, so find a place to stop the car and let the brakes cool to under 100 degrees if possible.
21. Enjoy having stronger than Type-R brakes without having to source and install new steering knuckles! Enjoy having the ability to stop your car at high speeds without fading all the time!
The end result will look like this:
by BrakeExpert
Feel free to ask any questions or IM me if you need parts/machining for this setup.
Updated with better pictures.
Modified by BrakeExpert at 3:19 AM 2/20/2008
This applies for:
1988-2000 Honda Civic DX LX VX HX CX models (don't know if HF will work)
1988-1995 Honda Civic Si without ABS (9.5" front brakes)
This will also work for any 88-00 Civic or 90-01 Integra that has DX Civic knuckles on it (9.5" brakes).
As some of you may have known, I'm nuts about brakes. Problem is that DX (and CX, LX, etc) with the 9.5” front brakes have a different shaped steering knuckle; the mounting tabs for the brakes are pulled in closer, so all of the brake options available for the big 4x100 hubs on the EX knuckles(which are a LOT of options) are not going to work on the DX knuckles. Well after enough testing and screwing with parts, I found out that the only upgrade you can put on DX knuckles was 10.3" brakes and ITR calipers. Well now I've figured out how to have the full 11.1" rotors on!
PRELUDE: This will cover how to convert your front 9.5" Honda brakes on the 88-00 Civic non-EX models into 11.1" CL front brakes. This upgrade will improve your braking performance. This setup offers a larger sweeping area, a very strong caliper, much larger pad, increased brake torque over a larger disc rotor, increased resistance to fade, and Honda reliability. This setup uses stock knuckles and stock brake hoses. If you are getting a kit from BrakeExpert, the modifications have been made and it is a bolt on uograde.
NECESSARY MODIFICATION: The rotors must be redrilled to 4x100 and custom aluminum rotor centering rings will be needed to ensure there is no radial vibration.. These redrilled rotors are safe because the lug stud holes have no sideways force exerted on them. The pressure from the lug nuts transfers throughout the whole face of the rotor's hat. The rotor is centered on the hub and the lug holes are there only to allow the studs to go through the rotor's hat and wheel's lug holes. The lug studs will not touch the rotor at all.
The rotors are a bit too tall and will hit the bracket when new. The bracket must be milled at the back where the knuckle mounting tabs are. Because this affects the caliper's contact angle, this machine work must be parallel like stock. A milling machine is required with a dial indicatior to ensure the cuts are each made the same depth to within .001". The brackets will not work stock, they will not bolt up to the knuckle and the hangar will lightly rub on the rotor's hat. The bracket should have a notch grinded at the backside to prevent it from hitting the knuckle. It should also be grinded carefully on the underside of the hangar to prevent this rubbing. I reccomend painting or coating this part to prevent any possibility of rust causing weakening over long periods of time. Also, since this is a custom setup and fitment is very tight, the retainer clips must be modified to have the part in the bracket's throat removed. This should be done with the proper dremel or metal cutting jig-saw very carefully. This is spring steel, which is difficult to cut, so be careful as a mis cut can cause the metal to break or crack in the middle.
Tools: 17mm wrench, 14mm wrench, 12mm wrench, phillips screwdriver, 19mm deep socket, socket wrench, 10mm wrench, torque wrench, rags, 10mm brake line wrench (optional), impact wrench (optional), ball scratcher (optional.)
INSTALLATION:
Ok so heres what's involved. 03 Acura CL front calipers, brackets and pads, 96 Prelude VTEC rotors, rotor centering rings, and machine work.
You will need access to a machine shop to make this work, or PM me (BrakeExpert) and I can take care of it for you.
1. Acquire all parts and tools.
2. Engage e-brake and put the car in Park or first. Jack up the nose of car and put the car on jackstands in the front.
3. Unbolt the lug nuts and remove the wheel.
4. Break the rotor retainer screws loose with the impact wrench. This may not be necessary if your screws are not rusted or you used anti-seize, but may be needed on older cars.
5. Remove the banjo bolt that connects the brake hose to the caliper. Now it gets messy, remember not to touch your car's paint with brake fluid on your hands.
6. Remove the 17mm bolts that hold the caliper to the steering knuckle. Remove the caliper.
7. Place the rotor centering ring on the hub.
8. Place the 11.1" rotor on the hub and use a lug nut to keep it in place.
9. Bolt the CL caliper with its brackets and pads onto the knuckle and torque the 17mm bolts to 80lb-ft.
10. Bolt the brake hose onto the caliper and torque to 30lb-ft if reusing your old crush washers. I reccomend new ones every time, but the old ones can get a second use if you overtighten just a bit (don't exceed 35lb-ft, you don't want to mess up these threads.
11. Pump the brake pedal enough to get the pads to clamp the rotor. The pedal will be soft since there is air in the system because it hasn't been bled yet.
12. Remove the lug nut and put the wheel on. Torque your lug nuts to 75lb-ft for aluminum wheels, 80lb-ft for steel wheels.
13. Do the same for the other side.
14. If you are upgrading the master cylinder, remove the MC by unbolting the 10mm bolts on the hardlines with a brake line wrench and then the 12mm bolts from the brake booster.
15. Bench bleed the master cylinder. If you are lazy and don't mind making a mess, fill the resovoir with brake fluid with the new MC out of the car. Use a screwdriver to push into the cylinder bore(EK/98+ Teg) or press on the piston if this is an EG/94-97 Teg. Do this about 6 times, fluid will gush out of the two holes.
16. Install the master cylinder onto the brake booster and tighten the 12mm bolts and then tighten the 10mm brake line bolts.
17. Your brakes are on. The new brakes must be bled. Use either a factory service manual for bleeding procedures, or check online for a standard bleeding procedure on hydraulic brakes. The proper bleeding order for Civics/Integras is Right Rear, then Left Front, then Left Rear, then Right Front. This is because of the crossed brake system; do not go by the method of fartest to closest (to the master cylinder). I reccomend bleeding the whole car, however if you are not changing the master cylinder (and you do not have ABS), you can bleed just the front brakes, however I reccomend bleeding all 4 brakes anyway.
18. Bleed the brakes.
19. Your brakes are on! Ensure the pedal can stop the car by removing the bricks, releasing the e-brake, and moving the car slightly. Stop the car with the pedal, if it does not stop, use the e-brake and check the brake system for bubbles by bleeding the car again.
20. Brake in your new brakes pads by standard brake pad brake in procedure. I reccomend finding an empty straightaway. Get the car upto 50mph and hit the brakes lightly, slowing the car to 10mph, but not to a complete stop. Do this about ten times, not giving your brakes time to cool in between. Your brakes will be pretty warm afterwards, so find a place to stop the car and let the brakes cool to under 100 degrees if possible.
21. Enjoy having stronger than Type-R brakes without having to source and install new steering knuckles! Enjoy having the ability to stop your car at high speeds without fading all the time!
The end result will look like this:
by BrakeExpert
Feel free to ask any questions or IM me if you need parts/machining for this setup.
Updated with better pictures.
Modified by BrakeExpert at 3:19 AM 2/20/2008
01-29-2008, 08:36 AM
#3
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (BrakeExpert)
yaay! is there any way you could post up step by step PICS? or at least the pics of the part after the machining is done... its gets confusing in a part or 2. thanks
01-29-2008, 11:16 AM
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (BrakeExpert)
What is the amount that must be milled out of the caliper bracket? It appears you left that out. Is it the same amount as the EX/ITR setup?
01-29-2008, 11:36 AM
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Yeah do will mill the back bracket off like the other swaps? Also can you give casting numbers on the parts. Maybe when i goto the junkyard i maybe able to find another car that uses the same setup. Also what MC do you recommend using?
--- I guess i'm selling my accord calipers and brackets now...
For once Toad has locked a post down...
--- I guess i'm selling my accord calipers and brackets now...
For once Toad has locked a post down...
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01-29-2008, 02:23 PM
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (BrakeExpert)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spun Vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">great info!</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the amount that must be milled out of the caliper bracket? It appears you left that out. Is it the same amount as the EX/ITR setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the amount that must be milled out of the caliper bracket? It appears you left that out. Is it the same amount as the EX/ITR setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
01-31-2008, 05:17 AM
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (roastbeefrichie)
Not bad! What size wheels will be needed? I don't think i'd be able to retain my stock 13"s (89 model)
01-31-2008, 06:06 AM
#14
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (D50boy)
15" there are very few 14" that will fit and the ones that will are pricey. So it is safe just to say 15"
01-31-2008, 07:11 AM
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (CRX Toad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the amount that must be milled out of the caliper bracket? It appears you left that out. Is it the same amount as the EX/ITR setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
01-31-2008, 09:23 AM
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (newby_j)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the amount that must be milled out of the caliper bracket? It appears you left that out. Is it the same amount as the EX/ITR setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
01-31-2008, 01:11 PM
#18
Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (CRX Toad)
You will need to take off 5mm of material, which I know seems like a lot, but this bracket is very thick and durable, and overengineered from the factory. My friend (strength and materials engineer) and I feel it will be safe and have no added vibration.
01-31-2008, 02:45 PM
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Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (BrakeExpert)
How are the redrilled rotors in the picture 4-lug on the oe holes. I thought that the prelude rotors were 5-lug
01-31-2008, 06:10 PM
#21
Re: DIY: 11.1" brakes on DX knuckles at long last!!! (newby_j)
No your thinkin of the 97 Prelude, the 92-96 were 4x114.3 in bolt pattern, the VTEC model having 11" brakes.
I'll have at least some pics up later tonight when I get home.
I'll have at least some pics up later tonight when I get home.
