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Thank you to nammdelano for correcting me.
I had previously said that B-series FWD Countershaft 1st gears were 43mm ID. This is not correct. They are 42mm ID.
I noticed before that there was a similarity between the countershaft 1st gear needle bearing on the B-series FWD and the SBXM transmissions. The dimension that they share is the 37mm ID of that needle bearing. The countershafts for both of these transmissions are 37mm diameter in the 1st gear region. It's possible that we may be able to get a B-series FWD c/s gear onto this thing. Lets see if 'we' can figure out if it's possible without ever turning a wrench or getting our hands dirty.
The chart that I put in my 1st post...
B-series FWD countershaft 1st gear height = 31.45-31.50mm (single-cone synchro)
SBXM / H22 R countershaft 1st gear height = 26.95-27.00mm (dual-cone synchro)
regular H22A countershaft 1st gear height = 32.95-33.00mm (single-cone-synchro)
The two H22 trans tell us that its 6mm difference between the single-cone c/s 1st gear vs the dual-cone 1st gear.
-----------------------------------
H22A4 USDM c/s 1st gear needle bearing (single cone)
91105-P16-008 Bearing, Needle (40X46X26.8) (Ntn)
H22 Type R c/s 1st gear needle bearing (dual cone)
91107-PDG-008 Bearing, Needle, 40x46x22
4.8mm height difference between the H22 c/s 1st gear needle bearings.
If there were to be a SBXM c/s 1st with a single single-cone synchro, and assuming that the engineers at Honda were consistent and added 4.8mm to the height of the c/s 1st gear needle bearing, then this would be..
4.8 + 21.5 = 26.3mm (adding 4.8mm to height of SBXM's 21.5mm
4.8 + 22.0 = 26.8mm (adding 4.8mm to height of H22 R's 22.0mm
1992+ B-series FWD countershaft 1st gear needle bearing is 25mm in height.
B-series countershaft 1st gear height is 1.5mm less than the H22 single-cone synchro. So lets say we add a 1.5mm shim under 1st gear.
Now, lets add that 1.5mm shim to the height of the B-series c/s 1st gear needle bearing
1.5mm + 25.0mm = 26.5mm
This leaves me to believe that a B-series countershaft 1st gear can fit onto a SBXM countershaft using the B-serie FWD c/s bearing. You would then need to find a shim that is 1.5mm in height. Referring to the spreadsheet that I linked in the 1st post, we can see that all 5 transmissions use the same shim at the bottom of the countershaft:
23921-PG1-000 Washer A, 40x54x1.96
So lets find a shim that is the same dimensions, but 1.5mm in height, that we can stack onto this one so that the countershaft B-series FWD 1st gear will have the proper spacing. This is assuming that a B-series FWD mainshaft will be used.
I bought 3 of these in Fall 2016. This was my photoshoot of them. The tall sleeve on the left is a 60x65x64mm stainless steel sleeve that is NOS (New, Old Stock) for and old, outdated, no-longer existant German water pump. I have 5 of these.
If one wanted to use a B-series countershaft in a F/H-series transmission, they would need a bearing that is 33x65x22 (possibly 20mm in height like B bearing is). There aren't any already existant, off-the-shelf bearings with these dimensions. Placing an order for a custom batch of bearings exceeds the economics / sensibility of this. The other alternative is to find a sleeve that they can tap into their F/H clutch housing, that will then allow for a B-series bearing to fit.
That's exactly what these are. I spent about $20 for each of sleeves. If anyone wants one of these I can run them through my father's bandsaw the next time I'm down there. I'm hoping I can cut each 64mm tall sleve into 3 sleeves, 20mm in height.
I still, do not understand why speedfactory had to order custom bearings.
Oh, and if that B-series countershaft 1st gear needle bearing ends up being ~0.3mm too tall, you can probably do this to shave the height down. Looks like B/F/H 5th gear collar is 37mm OD. Slide that into the c/s 1st needle bearing, then wrap a rubber band around it while sanding.
So if I could find one of those 3.285 1st gears, and it fit in the LS trans, I would have an effective 1st of 14.01 - right between where I am now and the GSR trans.
I would probably do that if that gear would fit and if I could find one. It would be a good time to replace the synchros.
Thanks!
Originally Posted by Bense
It sounds like what you're describing is a wide-ratio transmission. The only time wide-ratio gearing and Honda belong in the same sentence is if you were referring to an AWD CR-V or Element that goes off road and needs to climb over rocks, logs, etc.
You don't need short 1st/2nd gears. Are you towing trailers or something? If you want to reduce your cruising highway RPMs a lower final drive. There are already many, many, many threads about this.
Any recommendations on threads to read? I would love to expand my knowledge on the B-series trans.
If I am following you correctly, the 3.285 1st could fit in the LS trans?
And effectively it would feel more aggressive than the LS 1st I currently have, but less than the GSR 1st + its 4.4 final drive.
Your concern is that it would be further away from the 2nd gear, yes? SO you would wind up the B18 in 1st and then drop RPMs down too low when hitting 2nd - am I reading you correctly?
I’m new to the awd game but just bought a manual trans awd orthia in Japan, and really loved this read. So thanks for that.
I was wondering, in case anything is worn out in the gearbox, would a h22 euro R rebuild kit, from mfactory for example, work? Since I can’t really find orthia or crv specific kits.
sorry to interrupt this very informative topic but I couldn’t really find any info anywhere and I figured that this would be my best shot at AN answer
I’m new to the awd game but just bought a manual trans awd orthia in Japan, and really loved this read. So thanks for that.
I was wondering, in case anything is worn out in the gearbox, would a h22 euro R rebuild kit, from mfactory for example, work? Since I can’t really find orthia or crv specific kits.
sorry to interrupt this very informative topic but I couldn’t really find any info anywhere and I figured that this would be my best shot at AN answer
Do you know the Transmission code? if you can please let me know. The CRV code is SBXM
Do you know the Transmission code? if you can please let me know. The CRV code is SBXM
sadly the car won’t arrive here till the end of August so I can’t say for sure.
but it’s a 2000 manual awd orthia as mentioned above here.
I’ll see if I can find more info on it.
Well you know the gear ratios from Bense post earlier i figure all the parts from the euro R will work but when you get the car in August please post the transmission code. i still want to know just for record keeping.
Well you know the gear ratios from Bense post earlier i figure all the parts from the euro R will work but when you get the car in August please post the transmission code. i still want to know just for record keeping.
I’ll most definitely be keeping you updated.
I’ll probably start a build thread aswell as soon as the car gets here and I can start working on it.
So thanks already, like I said I have 0 experience with these awd systems and this is about the only place where a lot of info can be found. Manual orthia’s seem to be even more rare than I thought.
Orthia B 5MT 2WD Part numbers:-- For SBXM users wanting to run a 4.06 final drive, this countershaft is most likely direct fit in SBXM, but the ring gear is probably not. This goes back to where I was saying that a custom spacer should be made so that people can use regular F/H final drive ring gears (and possibly B-series GSR / ITR) with aftermarket H22 LSDs. 41233-PKH-000 - Final drive ring gear (4.06) 41100-PX5-E43 - differential (this is same as USDM F22 part number, I am only including this to show that this is whats listed in the parts catalog, this proves that the unique p/n for the ring gear bolts up to F22 / H22 diff. Not sure if this ring gear is diff from F22 4.0625) -----------------
23220-PKH-000 - countershaft - This should fit the SBXM transmission to give it a 4.06 final drive 23421-PKH-000 - Countershaft 1st gear - this is 3.285 for SBXM 91107-PBW-003 - Bearing, Needle (37X43X21.5) - this c/s 1st gear needle bearing is same as SBXM. Only including this p/n to show that this proves compatibility
---------------- 23210-PKH-000 - mainshaft - this should be almost identical to USDM 97-01 H22A4 mainshaft. ISB / mainshaft 'top' bearing is same as H22 / SBXM. If there is a difference from the H22 mainshaft then its probably on the pilot bearing region of the mainshaft. Someone should compare H22 / SBXM mainshafts.
-------------------------------------------------------- AWD 4.266 final drive from Orthia M4 5MT AWD - These are the part numbers are for a 4.266 final drive which should be direct fit for SBXM AWD transmission. 41233-PKJ-000 - Final drive ring gear 23220-PKJ-000 - Countershaft
SpeedFactory's $600 FWD2AWD conversion kit.
The most relevant part about this production of theirs can be seen in this screenshot that I took 2:47 into their youtube video, which I will now dissect.
In this picture there are 4 shims. From top to bottom, here's what each of these shims are for: Take notice how 1) B-series Reverse Idler gear Shim -- This can be used if you've got a B-series FWD reverse idler gear, and not the AWD idler gear. In other words, if you've got a core CR-V trans, (which you will need to get the 1st/2nd fork from anyway), then why would you even need this? 2) Shim that's used when using their aldins dogbox -- Trust me, the cost for 'dog boxes' is absolutely stupid. No customer should ever have to go out of their way to spend more money to modify their transmission to accommodate a ridiculously overpriced gearset that they're making a ton of profit from. Why is this shim even included in this kit and not with the Aldins dogbox kit? DIN988 shims cost less than $4/each. I feel like SpeedFactory is just throwing these extra shims in there just because it doesn't cost them anything (If its a common shim from mcmaster-carr, etc, then its going to be less than $4/each. And if its custom, then they likely had a large batch of them made, so at this point, its an extremely cheap 'filler' part just to make it seem like they've got something to sell you. 3) Shim that goes under the 1-2 synchro hub. This is most likely to accommodate the difference in spacing for the B-series 1-2 synchro hub, which is designed to be used with a single cone synchro for first gear, whereas the cr-v has dual-cone synchro for first gear. This shim is necessary for this kit that they offer. 4) Shim that goes 'under' the mainshaft. This is nice that they provide this. It's got a 28mm ID. I would be curious to see what the height (thickness) of this shim is. However, remember that Honda's transmission design entails a 28mm ID washer (23928-PS1-000 Washer (28MM)) as well as a 28mm ID spring washer (23927-PG2-A00 Washer, Spring (28MM)). -- In other words, if there doesn't already exist a 28mm ID round shim that is the proper thickness of this shim, buy 2-3 extra of the 28mm washer. When you get the measurements proper, you can sand down the heights of 1-2 of these things to get your clearances proper.
If it were me and if I really wanted to use B-series 1-2 gears in my SBXM trans, I would measure the 1-2 synchro hubs to determine the height for shim #3. I would then go here (https://www.mcmaster.com/round-shims) and filter out their shims that are 40mm ID. Although its possible that the OD of these common, Mcmaster shims are too large. (All of my B-series, F-series parts are currently 200+ miles away in my father's barn, so I'm not able to check).
But then I would just use the CR-V SBXM synchro sleeve (pretty sure its the same as F/H-series) on the B-series hub, and then just use the CR-V SBXM shift fork. However, if it were me, I would take the $600 that I was planning on spending for this 'FWD2AWD' kit, and just purchase a B-series MFactory final drive. MFactory Competition Products - Performance Driveline Components
ID x OD x H
1) 20.31 x 29.58 x 4.00mm
2) 28.29 x 38.15 x 1.55mm
3) 36.75 x 42.22 x 1.00mm
4) 28.57 x 40.74 x 2.10mm
Here's an interesting anomaly; the 1990-1991 Accord clutch case countershaft bearing is the same as that EDM D17 Stream. 33x62x22. But its an older bearing, different part number. This suggests that there were final drives made that are 33mm diameter that would fit. These countershafts may fit.
91103-PG2-004 Bearing, Needle (33X62X22) (Koyo)
Check out the vehicles that this bearing goes in: https://www.hondapartscheap.com/oem-...yo-91103pg2004
1991 Honda ACCORD 5-DOOR EX, LX 5 Speed Manual
1991 Honda ACCORD COUPE DX, EX, LX 5 Speed Manual
1991 Honda ACCORD SEDAN DX, EX, LX 5 Speed Manual
1991 Honda PRELUDE COUPE 2.05SI, 2.05SI (4WS), 2.05SI (ABS), 2.0SI 5 Speed Manual
1990 Honda ACCORD COUPE DX, EX, LX 5 Speed Manual
1990 Honda ACCORD SEDAN DX, EX, LX 5 Speed Manual
1990 Honda PRELUDE COUPE 2.05SI, 2.05SI (4WS), 2.05SI (ABS), 2.0S, 2.0SI 5 Speed Manual
https://www.acuraoemparts.com/oem-pa...yo-91103pg2004
1995 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, LS 6 Speed Manual
1995 Acura LEGEND SEDAN GS, L, L (MOQUETTE) 5 Speed Manual, 6 Speed Manual
1994 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, LS 6 Speed Manual
1994 Acura LEGEND SEDAN GS, L, L (MOQUETTE) 5 Speed Manual, 6 Speed Manual
1993 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, LS 6 Speed Manual
1993 Acura LEGEND SEDAN L, L (MOQUETTE), LS, STD 5 Speed Manual
1992 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, L* (MOQUETTE), LS 5 Speed Manual
1992 Acura LEGEND SEDAN L, L (MOQUETTE), LS, STD 5 Speed Manual
1991 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, L* (MOQUETTE), LS 5 Speed Manual
1991 Acura LEGEND SEDAN L, L (MOQUETTE), LS, STD 5 Speed Manual
1990 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, L (MOQUETTE), LS, STD 5 Speed Manual
1990 Acura LEGEND SEDAN L, L (MOQUETTE), LS, ST, STD (SUNROOF) 5 Speed Manual
1989 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, L (MOQUETTE), LS, STD 5 Speed Manual
1989 Acura LEGEND SEDAN L, L (MOQUETTE), LS, ST, STD (SUNROOF) 5 Speed Manual
1988 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, LS, STD 5 Speed Manual
1988 Acura LEGEND SEDAN L, LS, ST, STD (SUNROOF) 5 Speed Manual
1987 Acura LEGEND COUPE L, LS, STD 5 Speed Manual
1987 Acura LEGEND SEDAN LS, RS, RS (SUNROOF) 5 Speed Manual
1986 Acura LEGEND SEDAN LX 5 Speed Manual
I believe these are the ratios for 90-91 prelude. It appears to be similar to a 90-91 Accord but has a 4.26 final drive. The countershaft should fit.
1st 3.307
2nd 1.809
3rd 1.230
4th 0.903
5th 0.757
final drive / 4.26
Also, I want to remind everyone that I have never had first hand, physical access to an an SBXM transmission. I also no longer have my 2001 Accord, which had its H23A swap with F/H transmission. Please keep this in mind when all of you are messaging me. Also, I am interested in finding a 90-93 F-series 4th gear of 0.870. This would have been found in 90-93 Accord DX / LX. here are the teeth count of it:
27 / 31 = 0.870967
If any of you have this gear, please PM me.
I am also interested in getting my hands on a 90-91 Prelude mainshaft that has a 1.7722 second gear.
1st: 3.307 = 43/13
2nd: 1.772 = 39/22
If anyone has these parts, and is willing to measure them and/or part ways with them, please PM me.
What parts I need to buy for changing 4th and 5th gears in Civic VTi (B16A2) transmission to Acura Integra LS ratio? Only countershafts and mainshafts? Or do I need other parts? Thinking to use it and osidetiger 12-Hole Fuel injectors for getting more confort in highway (REVing less) and also a little bit higher MPG.
Looks like Speedfactory decided to revise their post. CTRL+F the source of their webpage and search for published: "published_at":"2020-07-08T22:35:46-07:00"
"created_at":"2020-07-08T22:35:46-07:00"
This thread was created Jan 28, 2020. I see elements of what I posted about in their revised post. Now am I saying that they necessarily 'bit off' my work / analysis that I've posted here? Not necessarily. The information that I've posted about here is factual, and the tools that I use are readily available to anyone. But it is interesting (albeit unsurprising) to see how their post changed.
Unfortunately, I still consider this to be impractical and I don't think that this ultimately addresses the issue that most people that are building B-series AWD transmissions are encountering, that is, inability to change final drives. What SpeedFactory should focus on is making a 5/R fork that allows people to use the larger B-series FWD gears. Then whoever is making the B-series AWD LSDs needs to provide an option where people can use the B-series FWD ring gears (GSR / ITR ring gear bolt pattern) with B-series AWD.
Those Albinis $4000+ gearsets are too impractical. Not only that, the ratios of those gears suck. I'm sure people will disagree with me and think that I'm just running my mouth, yet my inbox is full of people reaching out to me asking me how to do what I suggested that needs to be done, and they want to change out their gearing in the same way that I'm suggesting.
I don't even work on these transmissions. I've never taken apart or seen an SBXM transmission in person.
No thank you. I have to draw the line somewhere -- B/F/H-series is a dead platform. I feel like we're beating a dead horse here and there's no money in it.
A few weeks ago I saw that my local junkyard had a 1992 Accord Sedan LX 5MT. As per this thread, the 1990-1993 USDM Accord DX / LX transmission has a 4th gear of 0.871, which is the same ratio that the M2F4 (USDM 4g Prelude VTEC H22A), 1g HR-V, and H22 Accord Type R (Euro U2Q7 transmission). It is less than 1% different than the rare B17 5th gear of 0.875.
B-series FWD 5th gear has a larger synchro hub/synchros than F/H-series 5th gear. It is the same size as F-series 3rd & 4th gear synchros, as well as B18B LS 3rd & 4th gear synchros. A few years ago I speculated that I can use the 0.871 mainshaft 4th gear with a 0.871 countershaft 5th gear in a B-series FWD transmission. So, I decided to get it. Took me 2 hours and 36 minutes. Would have taken me less, but apparently I bought Bosch jigsaw blades for my new Bosch sawzall and they don't fit. Ugh.
I have always wondered what it would be like to go to a junkyard, pull off a transmission, take apart the transmission, grab ONE gear and take it up to the parts counter. Got some laughs today!!
.
.
Not often that I get to say (or even hear about) being the first one to do something to the 30-year old B/F/H-series platform that is objectively superior, while using OEM Honda parts!
Also, buddy of mine ordered 1g HR-V 2WD trans, along with Stream / FR-V trans. After we build the one for his car, the only way that I'm building another is if I decide to resurrect my old 1994 Civic Hatchback that's been parked at the back of my father's property for the last 11 years.
D17 Stream / FR-V ratios:
1st - 3.500
2nd - 1.760 (Unique)
3rd - 1.193 (F23 ratio - but fits larger DOHC VTEC sized synchro)
4th - 0.942 (Unique)
5th - 0.787 (T2T4, and other F/H)
Final - 4.933 (Unique)
In my tables of gear ratios, I have my tables calculate a very simple formula that allows me to quickly assess the spread between the span of 2nd-3rd-4th-5th gears. This value lets me know how "close-ratio" a transmission configuration actually is. The lower this number is, the tighter or closer the 2nd through 5th gearing is. I use this formula for both 5-speed and 6-speed transmissions.
The formula:
2nd gear ratio / 5th gear ratio = closeness
Here's some examples. Irony is that a lot of the transmissions that people to be the 'most desirable' are actually the worst. Look at the 1998+ JDM DC2 Type R B-series transmission being the most expensive one from importers, when in reality it has one of the widest spans, which is absolutely terrible for an engine that revs so high. It also seems counterintuitive to me that the trend for 1g NSX owners is to rebuild their 5-speed transmissions with the JDM NSX Type R 2nd,3rd,4th gears without also changing to the 4.26 final drive and thinking that they're getting a performance gain. They'd be better off keeping the ratios that they have and only use the Type R NSX final drive.
With exception possibly to the NSX, Every transmission series has enough final drive options (whether OEM or aftermarket) where you can gear it however you like. Any of the transmission series where there have not been final drives available, I have managed to discover ones that will work. This provides enough flexibility where one can take advantage of a 2-3-4-5 span that necessitates a taller 2nd gear to bring the span closer to the shortest available OEM 5th.
Very high revving engines such as S2000, JDM Integra Type R DC5 tend to have a lower value. Less than 2.20.
In general, any transmission configuration that has a 2nd/5th value that is lower than 2.0 should be paired with an engine that revs higher than 8000 RPM. However, something like a K24 that revs to 7500, with a Gear-X gearset would probably work fine, provided that a lower ratio final drive is also used -- however, the 1.7934 value for the Gear-X (K-series) doesn't exactly tell the whole story because that transmission has a closer 2nd -> 3rd shift than most of the others, this can be okay because that Gear-X gearset comes with a mainshaft with a taller 1st gear.
But, like I said, this is a number I use to generally, quickly assess transmissions that are plugged into my vast number of tables within my PERSONAL BENSEBUILT SPREADSHEETS!!! (lol)
Great stuff here!
Finally all theories confirmed!
Here in Europe we have the Hr-V AWD since the 1995,
all modeles up to 2005 uses a tranny with the CR-V XBSM internals, Only packed in a D series housing.
I had cross-referenced all the OEM numbers and is identical.
Thanks BENSE!
Awesome input, I surely wont have a sleep tonight. My cute CRX will be reborn!
Re: Honda B/F/H-Series Transmission gears interchange. B-series AWD - CR-V SBXM
