was talking to a customer at work today, i had to load some crap in his car and he had a lightly done up civic, well, it said honda on the windshield and he had honda shoulder pads on the seat belt... and uhh... 17" crome wheels... and uhh.. yeah i just pretended that he knew what he was doing.

but anyway where talking about cars and then he says something that hit me strait in the face and actualy made me think for awhile

hook up your AC, that when you turn it on, instead of going into your car, it goes directly into your intake!! now what i'm thinking, is that the power lost to pump the ac compressor would be the same as the power gained by the cold air, and in essense, useless.

anyone have any thoughts?? i think this is whack, but then again, if you can get a high quality efficient AC compressor that send out below 0 temperatures, that would be sick.

 

when i first joined this site some guy did that and got like 1HP at the fly, so yea in a sense its useless

 

haha thatd be intresting by taking the unit out of your dash and putting it through your intake, just while you were waiting to go down the 1/4 mile, then turn it off.

 

its useless, power gained won't offest power lost

 

Thats what nitrous is for.

 

just as an engine is not 100% efficient(heat and exhaust gas spent) an air conditioning system is not efficient(more power lost from a/c belt off the crank than cool air in the intake could ever produce)


this is kind of like how stooooopid people open up their fridge to cool off the house when the compressor on the back of the fridge is heating up thier house more than the air inside the fridge is cooling it off.

 

this concept is used on the upcoming ford F-150 lightning. The A/C unit blows cold air into the ram air duct. If a OEM did it there has to be some benefits. My 2 cents.

 

Here is the truck. Look for the paragraph about the "Supercooler".

http://www.maximum-cars.com/Ca...r=418

 

intresting, see what they have there is like a compressed tank that fills up, almost like a nitrous bottle, which would make more sense!!

you turn your ac off, open up the storage tank, and have 0 degree air for ohh lets say? 15 seconds? one good run on the track or the street?

altho it would be useless at a circuit race unless you can time the recharges during cornering and use the cold air during straits, but even then it would be a lost cause.

its intresitng non the less.

 

Yeah, but you have to remember, its a little bit more complex than whats stated above, otherwise it wouldn't be patented.

 

Cold air, schmold air.

Everyone thinks cold sir is the answer to everything. Don't believe the hype. Think about cold air like this:

Take gasoline on a 40 degree day. Pour it on the concrete. Does it evaporate quickly?? No.

Take gasoline and pour it on the concrete on a 90 degree day. Does it evaporate quickly now?? Yes.

The thing people don't get about cold air is that there IS such a thing as TOO cold of an air charge. The ballance between a cold dense air charge, and air warm enough to STILL evaporate fuel and keep it from puddling is the perfect intake design.

Freezing intercoolers does nothing. CO2 cooling your intake pipe does nothing. We need to take everyone back to High School physics class and have them look at Boyle's gas laws and Bernuli's prinipal. That's ALL a cold air intake is. Physics.

When you make the math do the work for you, you'll find perfection is achieved at 64 degrees F. At 64 degrees F, fuel atomization is ballanced with air density. everyone thinks colder is better. If colder is better, then why does every car run like **** on cold start-up on a 20 degree day????

See what the hype has done? Everone forgot to go back to the calculator and ask the men who wrote the laws what the real answers are.

Zero degree air would just freeze water particals inside the intake runners and make fuel atomization non-existant. So what, you have ALL KINDS OF AIR, and no way to get the fuel to evaporate. So now you're back on cold start idle.

Boyle's right. Not AEM.

Stick

 

you'll never pass tech with that on or you'll get kicked off the track on your first pass. The condensation will make it too dangerous for anyone to go down the track

 

Boost it!!!!

 

You are kinda mixing different aspects of an engine here.

A car starts like **** on a cold day because of oil circulation, and engine heat playing a role in thermal effeciency.

intake tempature is completely different.

The general rule is for every 11 degree drop in tempature you can expect to see a 1% gain in whp. Of cource there is a limit to how effective that is, but you have to remember that the IM and Head often are very hot. So intake charge is likely to warm up by the time it gets to the injectors.

 

thanks redlineracer for that reply


people forget the only advantage of cold air is it is more dense, not the actual temperature. Combustion is actually more efficient when the difference between the pre combustion temperature and the temperature of the combustion is closer together.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bhive9024 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Combustion is actually more efficient when the difference between the pre combustion temperature and the temperature of the combustion is closer together. </TD></TR></TABLE>

please re-write that, you just said that it is then beneficial to have hot air in your intake rather than cold.

 

it IS beneficial except the benifits of MORE air from it being cold outweigh the benefits of a lesser difference between your pre combustion temperature and your combustion temperature. There is really no way to get the best of both worlds, but there is in every situation a point to where colder air will not help you. Both vaiables are on a non-linear slope and there is no one that i have come into contact with that has the necessary tools to figure out where the optimal point is, not to mention as long as the temperature changes, it is worthless to calculate anyways. Just food for thought really. Sorry for the confusion

 

It sounds very tempting but it wont work.

Even if you channel the cool air into the intake, the amount of energy used to produce that cold air will not be made up with horespower output.
There are natural inefficiency that limits systems such as the one proposed. What you have described is a perpetual motion machines.
(PPM are machines that produce more energy or work from less work or energy inout).




Modified by AllmotorJunkie at 3:12 PM 10/27/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AllmotorJunkie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It sounds very tempting but it wont work.

Even if you channel the cool air into the intake, the amount of energy used to produce that cold air will not be made up with horespower output.
There are natural inefficiency that limits systems such as the one proposed. What you have described is a perpetual motion machines.
(PPM are machines that produce more energy or work from less work or energy inout).


Modified by AllmotorJunkie at 3:12 PM 10/27/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is true but energy can be built up, stored and then relesed for short bursts, like down a drag strip.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MyBigNut &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, but you have to remember, its a little bit more complex than whats stated above, otherwise it wouldn't be patented.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I worked for a company that tried to copy the design of some steel transmission belt from another company. I was on the team trying to do this. There was something like 2000 patents on this belt...and only like 3-5 we actually worried about.

Bottom line, most half the time people patent stuff purely to discourage copying, not prevent it. The other half they patent stuff just so they can say "This new patented blah blah blah...." It makes it sound all that much better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by foot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
this concept is used on the upcoming ford F-150 lightning. The A/C unit blows cold air into the ram air duct. If a OEM did it there has to be some benefits. My 2 cents.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Uhh FORD did it. That means that its prolly SHI*TY and Not engineered correctly at all. Come on can you really trust a FORD. FOUND ON ROAD DEAD! Lets get back to reality.
Its about as a good idea as adding a gas leaf blower to your intake and useing that instead of turbo etc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deepgreengsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Uhh FORD did it. That means that its prolly SHI*TY and Not engineered correctly at all. Come on can you really trust a FORD. FOUND ON ROAD DEAD! Lets get back to reality. </TD></TR></TABLE>Ugh...ignorance.

 

I dont think the gain from cold air, would offset the amount of engine power it would take to turn the a/c compressor

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by foot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is true but energy can be built up, stored and then relesed for short bursts, like down a drag strip.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree energy can be stored
but when you release the energy....I garauntee you that you will not convert 100% of that stored energy into work.
Energy is always lost by some form or manner.

100% input never equals 100% output.

 

It would make more sense to run a freon core (like on a fridge) and somehow make it in the path of the intake, in effect act like an intercooler. but i dont htink its worth trying.


Rob