As mentioned and then deleted from Diane's "offs" thread (sorry!), we are thinking about doing the first beginner track session under full course yellow from now on.

The reason is mostly because that first session should be spent getting the beginner student comfortable in the car, and learning which turns go in which direction and so on.

First session is no time to be pushing the car at all, yet there are always offs. We want to correct that.

Another option is letting the instructor drive the student's car for the first half of that first session. Perhaps we will do both.

This fits into the idea that the weekend is a learning process. Some clubs do the entire weekend for beginners with a speed limit. I don't think we need to go quite that far, but I would like to make things safer in any way possible.

Thoughts? (Esp. from instructors.)

Thanks,

Jon

 

The trains would be too long.

~1/3 of the session under FCY?

What about orientation runs for the beginners... in the instructor’s car? I received favorable comments after taking both of my students out on track.

For the most part, the beginners have never seen the track before.

Will

 

I like that

 

WAY too much for a beginner to remember prior to getting them into the car. By having them DOING while SEEING will make it much more concrete in their minds.

Remember FCY doesn't necessarily mean "touring laps". It means "take it down to a point where you can drive around anything" as well as "no passing". With that said the laps can still be 6/10ths and maybe even 7/10ths. I feel this is more than fast enough for a beginning student. I know I learn more about a track's line initially when I am at low speeds.

So you are willing to bank on the fact that the instructor won't wad the car up? If he/she does then who is liable? I know if I was a student I wouldn't let some instructor I don't know drive my car. Why? Because I doubt SpeedTrial or whoever else is going to accept the responsibility if one of their staff damage a student's car.


[Modified by Cobra, 5:03 PM 12/10/2001]

 

But that's the thing... is it important if there are trains at all? I mean, if they are told at the drivers meeting that their first session is simply for orientation, why would it matter? I would think that they would be happier following the car just in front anyway.

As in - how would a pace car (i.e. touring laps) be any different? We had a 35-car train for touring laps on Sat. that still managed to stretch itself from Rollercoaster all the way back to the bridge... and that was even when we were *trying* to bunch everybody up!

1/2 instructor driving for orientation, 2/2 under FCY (and/or behind pace car) maybe?

Thanks,

Jon

 

I feel a 5-10 min orientation ride along with instructors, reduced speed (FCY), is a good idea for the first day of the event.


It works perfectly at our events


[Modified by B18CXr, 5:04 PM 12/10/2001]

 

Jon,
that sounds like a good idea, but... I think it all depends on how you define beginner, and maybe also on the track. If a beginner has never been to that particular track (or not recently, anyway), then it would be a great idea.
But if the beginner has already been to that track a couple of times, he/she knows the line already. Also, while VIR is certainly a track that would take longer to learn, a relatively short track like Summit Point doesn't take all that long to learn the line on.

I dunno, this is coming from an "intermediate beginner" kinda guy (3 events...) and I would personally not be too happy if I had to sit through a whole session of Summit under FCY. On the other hand, I drove my first session on the Jefferson as if it were under FCY (I know 'cause I watched my tape, hehe) so I guess I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Not much help after all, huh? Oh well, I'll post anyway.

Sebastien (let me be a lemming here)
who is jealous he couldn't go to VIR (but, "one day she will be mine, oh yes, she will be mine"), and is just thinking "out loud online" at the moment.
Please excuse the ramblings...

 

I would have to agree with Willard on the Orientation runs.. I know that many instructors do not have passenger seats, myself included, but there are many who do, and plenty of tow vehicles for a multiple student tour of the track. We typically do this with Car Guys, and I think every student should be taken around the track, just to see it, and get an idea of about where the "Line" should be. This will also familiarize the students with the passing zones, and get them used to being on the track before they are behind the wheel. This alone will decrease the inital "Train" of traffic, as the beginners first get on track. Another thing we try to do with Car Guys, especially when we have a big track, is release the cars one at a time, with a space of about 8-10 car lengths.. it does help. But, I think a full session of FCY would be a little much, and I don't think every student is gonna want somebody else driving his/her car.. instructor or not. Just my $.02

 

I think that FCY for a session *might* work well, as long as everyone knows ahead of time, and you don't put the viper out behind the miata.

Personally, I am not driving a student's car. Too much liability for me. I'll take them around in mine, but you will not get me behind the wheel of theirs. I think it's presumptuave to assume the student would hand me the keys too. There are only about 5 or 6 people I'd hand the keys to my car to (MaddMatt, krshultz, RacerBowie, Ron, O-man, Whitney). If the idea is to show them the track, then I can do that in my car, no need to be driving theirs.

 

Some PCA clubs run the first session on Sat in the beginner group under standing yellow with a 60 MPH limit. All in all .. I think it works well if the run group is full of people who have 0 to 1 weekend of experience. Otherwise it can be frustrating for those with a little more experience having to "waste" a session stuck behind cars without the ability to pass.

 

Let me clarify...

If the idea is to show them the track, then I can do that in my car, no need for me to be driving theirs.

Sorry about the miscommunication.

 

I like the idea of the instructor doing the first few laps behind the wheel of the students car and talking the student through the turns and what they are doing. I have done Summit Point a few times and they do this. I learned a great deal by just watching and having my instructor explain all the cones and turns as she did the first few laps. As we all know we can look at pictures and videos of the track and think we know what the instructor is saying but in all reality most people only learn from actually going around the track. I think the group would benefit further as the cars would become more spread out after Instructor and drivers pitted to change positions.

I also think the classroom sessions assumed that the students already knew quite a bit and did not cover the basics as much as they could of. Overall it was a great experience but I believe the classroom sessions have room for improvement.

Anthony
The really loud red Jetta.

One more thing to add: I think FCY is a little too much but "NO PASSING IN THE FIRST SESSION!" would be a better idea. Let the students(me) concentrate on the course and not the traffic, encourage everyone to spread out more. If there is someone that wants to go a little faster then they can pit and let traffic go by.


[Modified by 95GLX, 10:32 PM 12/10/2001]

 

i'll hand my keys to anyone!! hmmmm....i think that bit me in the a$$ once....i don't remember!!!

ROFLMSAO!!!!

 

95GLX - Were you Beginner or Intermediate group? If you were Intermediate, then Ron likely assumed some knowledge when classroom began. If Beginner, I am surprised. I have sat throguh MANY Ron Spencer classrooms and felt he covered the basics. If you have feedback for him, please let me know and I'll take it back to him. He is always interested in feedback on his classroom instruction.

 

Please elaborate. Ron Spencer is one of the best in the business, so I assume anything that wasn't said was from the portion of the classroom sessions that I covered. Don't be afraid to offend - please tell me *exactly* what we didn't say, so we can do it better for next time, of course.

Jon
who greatly appreciates constructive criticism

 

Ron did a great job but if I had not already had the classroom sessions I had at Summit then I would of been a little lost. I was in the beginner group.
I have to run to the post office, I will give more depth later, maybe just write an email up and send it to you that way.

If you ever did a FATT at Summit then you know what they go over in there classroom and I think it is a good model. I was last there April 7, 2000 and I learned a lot. Not sure if it is the same program still but the lady that taught it was very good, hell, she would be a good match for Ron. The two of them would kick ***.

Anthony

 

I'd rather not. Back when I started driving, I used to get real twitchy when faster cars got behind me (most students do) even if they gave me plenty of space. I would have hated to go a whole session with a big bore car riding my ***. Possibly extend the FCY to three laps at the beginning of the weekend, but nothing more than that.

I like doing this, and that is how I was taught (seemed pretty common at FATTS, at least among the SRX-7 crowd). But, Diane has a point. Is this common at other schools (Car Guys, NASA, etc)? I had no problem handing the keys to the FATT instructors, but they were all accomplished SRX-7 drivers who I either knew in person or by reputation - not sure if I would have reacted the same if I didn't already know the instructor. But my RX-7 was always a track car, I would NOT have given the keys to my Civic to another driver.

Ack!

 

As a student I would not want a FCY, I would be distracted with cars behind me all the time.

Understanding the concern about instructors driving students' cars, if students were to ride in instructors' cars, scheduling would have to be rearranged to accommodate the changeover, or have them ride during the first instructor session.

Main thing is that no student should be attempting to drive 10/10ths during the first session, it is supposed to be a warmup / familiarization.

 

Orientation laps = . Even if all you do is say "there's the corner worker station" and "turn 1 is a right hander."

 

One of the most valuable lessons I've gotten from BMWCCA was the "no brake" and "one gear" sessions. To me, especially if you do the one gear session first (and this should be for ALL groups incl. instructors), you get the chance to really see the track because you aren't spending time/energy shifting and watching the revs (unless on a straight). Yeah, it might make you slower in the straights for that session but that is a good thing. Following this (and sometimes they do this first session Sunday) they do the no brake session which I think really drives home both being smooth and thinking ahead as well as alternate ways to scrub speed. Personally I haven't heard anyone say that these sessions are a waste.

 

I don't know if I would be in favor of a blanket FCY in the first session, but after reviewing this thread, and the "Describe your off" one, I do believe that the instructors need to be told to keep a tighter rein on their students the first couple of times out.

In most instances, the instructor really doesn't know how well the student can drive until after the first session. I'm not talking about skill at high speed, but just how much self control and common sense the student has. Once the instructor has this baseline, then maybe he/she can let the speed come up (or start trying to change some mis-conceptions about personal immortality).

It might also be a good idea to have instructors ride the first session with the Advanced group, just to be sure they're as "advanced" as they think they are.

Implementation of the "two and out" rule for uncontrolled offs at the initial drivers' meeting might also calm folks down. Strange how people who don't fear bodily harm will slow down to make sure they get their money's worth of track time.

 

personally, i like the idea, one idea i'd like to throw up in the air, orientation laps, with instructor pace cars leading about 5-6 cars a piece.. It's kinda hard to learn where you should be when you have someone telling you, but if you're following someone, you can see exactly where you need to be. i dunno, just a thought.

 

Instructors do what they can to control students. If the student *really* isn't listening, they usually end up in the pits. I can only speek for myself and my experience, but I never "let" my students have a loose rein, they seem to decide for themselves all of a sudden that they can take x turn faster, brake later, use a different turn-in, etc without warning. It's difficult to know its coming, and most times it's not intentional (from what I've seen). Especially in beginner groups... you have concentration problems for many different reasons. Instructors can only do so much from the right seat. But you better believe we're getting out of a car we don't feel comfortable in, and if we're not in that car, the car isn't on track. Geezer, in theory, you have a great point... if the instructor wouldn't "let" the student do X, then the probability of the student going off is lower, however the instructor isn't usually letting the student do something dumb... it happens before the instructor can put the words together to stop it.

 

Some people don't understand that it's not just themselves they are endangering, but the passenger (instructor) as well. I think a strongly adhered to "two and out" rule -- or better yet, go off in the first session and you're out -- would curb some of the red mist. Maybe. It's a difficult call, but there are some people who might only understand the financial penalty.

Karen

 

I personally like the idea of orientation laps after the first instructors session.