RE: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas....
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From: Sportscar Heaven, England
RE: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas....
Anthony/whichever mod is online, Please could you let me have this little thread here to correct some misinformation and to give people somthing to think about when they consider their views on turbocharged Honda engines.
It relates to the 'Dream H22..what would you do?' thread.
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People are saying FI doesnt belong on Honda but in reality, Soichiro Honda, in the late eighties as 'supreme advisor' advised Nobuhiko kawamoto (Who became president from june 1990 after the retirement of Honda President Tadashi Kume) the NA route because he belived that they needed to master volumetric efficiency (hp/litre) on NA engines before they jumped into turbos for production cars.
Nobuhiko Kawamoto was one of Honda's engineering masterminds, he played a key role at Honda R&D from 1976 to 1989. Kawamoto developed the turbo F1 engines of the day, these were engines like the MP4/4 turbocharged RA168E engine a V6 1,497cc engine that rev'd to 11,800rpm and made 675bhp Reliably! Running on 84% tolulene and 16% Heptane. *(same engine supplied to Williams-Honda F1 cars and a few others companies at the time).
When turbocharged F1 engines were banned Kawamoto was very dissapointed. "We were getting close to 1bhp per cc (!) at the end. Imagine what that could mean for a small production car - say 60bhp from an engine so tiny you could hide it anywhere." Said Kawamoto.
He wanted smaller displacement turbocharged engines in racing so that racing technology would be more directly applicable to road cars, and racing would be seen to be making a response to the environmentally conscious 1990s.
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If a couple of people want to see a pic of this engine I'll scan one in. Otherwise I can't be bothered without demand.
BTW, all the above info was taken from a book I have on the History of Honda 100% accurate.
It relates to the 'Dream H22..what would you do?' thread.
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People are saying FI doesnt belong on Honda but in reality, Soichiro Honda, in the late eighties as 'supreme advisor' advised Nobuhiko kawamoto (Who became president from june 1990 after the retirement of Honda President Tadashi Kume) the NA route because he belived that they needed to master volumetric efficiency (hp/litre) on NA engines before they jumped into turbos for production cars.
Nobuhiko Kawamoto was one of Honda's engineering masterminds, he played a key role at Honda R&D from 1976 to 1989. Kawamoto developed the turbo F1 engines of the day, these were engines like the MP4/4 turbocharged RA168E engine a V6 1,497cc engine that rev'd to 11,800rpm and made 675bhp Reliably! Running on 84% tolulene and 16% Heptane. *(same engine supplied to Williams-Honda F1 cars and a few others companies at the time).
When turbocharged F1 engines were banned Kawamoto was very dissapointed. "We were getting close to 1bhp per cc (!) at the end. Imagine what that could mean for a small production car - say 60bhp from an engine so tiny you could hide it anywhere." Said Kawamoto.
He wanted smaller displacement turbocharged engines in racing so that racing technology would be more directly applicable to road cars, and racing would be seen to be making a response to the environmentally conscious 1990s.
-
If a couple of people want to see a pic of this engine I'll scan one in. Otherwise I can't be bothered without demand.
BTW, all the above info was taken from a book I have on the History of Honda 100% accurate.
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: virginia beach, Va
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (OTT)
awesome research man! thanks for the info, finally a rebuttal with concrete fact, opposed to opinion, to support an argument.
to you and to turbo hondas. 
to you and to turbo hondas.
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From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (preludeez)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by preludeez »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> to you and to turbo hondas. </TD></TR></TABLE>
hel yah
to you and to turbo hondas. </TD></TR></TABLE>hel yah
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From: ORIGINAL H22 GANGSTA
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (Firedrake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Firedrake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone who says turbos don't belong on Hondas is an idiot. Turbos belong on EVERYTHING!
B</TD></TR></TABLE>
B</TD></TR></TABLE>
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Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (h22 civic)
Your example has no relavence to this discussion. The example you posted was an engine that was designed like that from the factory. People who are against FI Honda engines are talking about taking an engine that was NOT designed for FI and making it FI. BIG DIFFERENCE!!! 
Let's see how your turbo Honda does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
Hondas VTEC technology is made for racing on a track, to be reliable. It wasn't meant to make a lot of power for short periods of time only to break down all the time.
My 240SX will be turboed, make good power, and be reliable. That car is supposed to be turboed since the engine was designed with that in mind. And I will be able to make reliable HP without spending too much money. Upgrade the turbo, FMIC, and a Jim Wolf ECU upgrade, I am on my way to 300whp. That's smart in my opinion. Plus, I will have RWD. Not economical with Honda engines.
You all are forcing your cars to take FI. It's amusing to see you all spend all this money TRYING to make the engine into something it was never meant to be. Spending lots of money TRYING to make an engine into something it wasn't meant to be just isn't my thing. I am into cheap HP, reliable, and fun. That's why I got a 240SX.
If you are into spending lots of money making your motor FI, that's cool. It doesn't mean you are right.
For as much as some of you FI guys have spent on your cars, I will be able to have the same amount of fun, if not more, driving my NA Prelude AND a FI Nissan.....and my bank account will still be healthy. HAHA
Whatever makes you happy. Expensive, unreliable HP isn't my thing....and I don't know too many people who will say it is a smart thing either.
Let's see how your turbo Honda does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
Hondas VTEC technology is made for racing on a track, to be reliable. It wasn't meant to make a lot of power for short periods of time only to break down all the time.
My 240SX will be turboed, make good power, and be reliable. That car is supposed to be turboed since the engine was designed with that in mind. And I will be able to make reliable HP without spending too much money. Upgrade the turbo, FMIC, and a Jim Wolf ECU upgrade, I am on my way to 300whp. That's smart in my opinion. Plus, I will have RWD. Not economical with Honda engines.
You all are forcing your cars to take FI. It's amusing to see you all spend all this money TRYING to make the engine into something it was never meant to be. Spending lots of money TRYING to make an engine into something it wasn't meant to be just isn't my thing. I am into cheap HP, reliable, and fun. That's why I got a 240SX.
If you are into spending lots of money making your motor FI, that's cool. It doesn't mean you are right.
For as much as some of you FI guys have spent on your cars, I will be able to have the same amount of fun, if not more, driving my NA Prelude AND a FI Nissan.....and my bank account will still be healthy. HAHA
Whatever makes you happy. Expensive, unreliable HP isn't my thing....and I don't know too many people who will say it is a smart thing either.
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From: On the Prowl, Mo
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (AndyD)
the same goes for any high hp N/A, high compression honda.
you're gonna spend just as much money building a strong N/A
motor. So it's not just FI, it goes both ways
you're gonna spend just as much money building a strong N/A
motor. So it's not just FI, it goes both ways
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 59
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From: minnesota
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (Matgallis)
AndyD, no offense, but that's utter bullshit. The ka24det was never meant for a turbo, the sr20det was. There are striking differences between the two blocks, and to turbo a ka24det is roughly the same as trying to turbo an h23a. Unless you are planning to drop in the Silvia plant, you run into the same reliability problems as any other car. You also spend the same amount of money
Let's see how YOUR turbo ka24det Nissan does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
Modified by miff at 6:09 PM 9/3/2004
Let's see how YOUR turbo ka24det Nissan does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
Modified by miff at 6:09 PM 9/3/2004
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Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (AndyD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your example has no relavence to this discussion. The example you posted was an engine that was designed like that from the factory. People who are against FI Honda engines are talking about taking an engine that was NOT designed for FI and making it FI. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
Let's see how your turbo Honda does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
Hondas VTEC technology is made for racing on a track, to be reliable. It wasn't meant to make a lot of power for short periods of time only to break down all the time.
My 240SX will be turboed, make good power, and be reliable. That car is supposed to be turboed since the engine was designed with that in mind. And I will be able to make reliable HP without spending too much money. Upgrade the turbo, FMIC, and a Jim Wolf ECU upgrade, I am on my way to 300whp. That's smart in my opinion. Plus, I will have RWD. Not economical with Honda engines.
You all are forcing your cars to take FI. It's amusing to see you all spend all this money TRYING to make the engine into something it was never meant to be. Spending lots of money TRYING to make an engine into something it wasn't meant to be just isn't my thing. I am into cheap HP, reliable, and fun. That's why I got a 240SX.
If you are into spending lots of money making your motor FI, that's cool. It doesn't mean you are right.
For as much as some of you FI guys have spent on your cars, I will be able to have the same amount of fun, if not more, driving my NA Prelude AND a FI Nissan.....and my bank account will still be healthy. HAHA
Whatever makes you happy. Expensive, unreliable HP isn't my thing....and I don't know too many people who will say it is a smart thing either. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Your applying right/wrong to turboing your honda
Your stating what my engine was made for.
Your only arguement here is the cost/power arguement wich in turn if you want to use that arguement you can basicaly say that ferrari sucks. I disagree. I feel I can make my engine however the **** I want. I can rebuild my motor to support any amount of power I want. You think your going to squeez 450whp out of stock internals go ahead and try. The second you rebuild that motor the statement "your making a car something it wasnt meant to be" goes out the window so shut the **** up. and the ammount your spending on your nissan you could build a benson block and slap a nice turbo setup on it with a well tuned ems and fuel setup and its all of the sudden not unreliable.
In reality you can make your car meant for whatever you want. Just set a goal.
240sx roughly 2500$
sr20 swap roughly 35-4k$ I have researched this and this is what it costs
300whp will cost even more
my turbo kit built to support 600whp 3700$
my engine management built to support anything reliably = 2700$
built motor 2900$ with broken stuff and extras Im gonna set my total cost at around 10-12k$ for exactly what I want. "a freeway monster" < thats all I want
I do agree tho vtec wasnt made for turbo and it sucks for me. I'll still be making 400whp reliably I dont care what anyone says
Let's see how your turbo Honda does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
Hondas VTEC technology is made for racing on a track, to be reliable. It wasn't meant to make a lot of power for short periods of time only to break down all the time.
My 240SX will be turboed, make good power, and be reliable. That car is supposed to be turboed since the engine was designed with that in mind. And I will be able to make reliable HP without spending too much money. Upgrade the turbo, FMIC, and a Jim Wolf ECU upgrade, I am on my way to 300whp. That's smart in my opinion. Plus, I will have RWD. Not economical with Honda engines.
You all are forcing your cars to take FI. It's amusing to see you all spend all this money TRYING to make the engine into something it was never meant to be. Spending lots of money TRYING to make an engine into something it wasn't meant to be just isn't my thing. I am into cheap HP, reliable, and fun. That's why I got a 240SX.
If you are into spending lots of money making your motor FI, that's cool. It doesn't mean you are right.
For as much as some of you FI guys have spent on your cars, I will be able to have the same amount of fun, if not more, driving my NA Prelude AND a FI Nissan.....and my bank account will still be healthy. HAHA
Whatever makes you happy. Expensive, unreliable HP isn't my thing....and I don't know too many people who will say it is a smart thing either. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Your applying right/wrong to turboing your honda
Your stating what my engine was made for.
Your only arguement here is the cost/power arguement wich in turn if you want to use that arguement you can basicaly say that ferrari sucks. I disagree. I feel I can make my engine however the **** I want. I can rebuild my motor to support any amount of power I want. You think your going to squeez 450whp out of stock internals go ahead and try. The second you rebuild that motor the statement "your making a car something it wasnt meant to be" goes out the window so shut the **** up. and the ammount your spending on your nissan you could build a benson block and slap a nice turbo setup on it with a well tuned ems and fuel setup and its all of the sudden not unreliable.
In reality you can make your car meant for whatever you want. Just set a goal.
240sx roughly 2500$
sr20 swap roughly 35-4k$ I have researched this and this is what it costs
300whp will cost even more
my turbo kit built to support 600whp 3700$
my engine management built to support anything reliably = 2700$
built motor 2900$ with broken stuff and extras Im gonna set my total cost at around 10-12k$ for exactly what I want. "a freeway monster" < thats all I want
I do agree tho vtec wasnt made for turbo and it sucks for me. I'll still be making 400whp reliably I dont care what anyone says
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 526
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From: virginia beach, Va
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (ludetech)
whoa killers - easy with the vulgar attacks, andyD didn't flame anyone, no need to fly off the handle at him just because you don't agree with his theory about N/A hondas, argue back with some sort knowledgeable response - like the author of this thread...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SKDRCR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the same goes for any high hp N/A, high compression honda.
you're gonna spend just as much money building a strong N/A
motor. So it's not just FI, it goes both ways </TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SKDRCR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the same goes for any high hp N/A, high compression honda.
you're gonna spend just as much money building a strong N/A
motor. So it's not just FI, it goes both ways </TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 78
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From: Atlanta, GA, US
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (preludeez)
ummm....my only response to all this is that i dont think engines have a "divine purpose" or something. its ignorant to say theres only one way to do something.
do you think any production 4-cylinder engines were ever made to produce 300WHP naturally aspirated? no. can people make them? yes.
do you think FWD cars were ever meant to drag race? NO. they have to fight physics because the weight naturally shifts off the driving wheels. do people drag race them? YEP.
you can build an engine (regardless of manufacturer) to handle huge amounts of stress, either from FI or NA. if you think building the engine to handle this stress is cheating or something, why the hell is anyone modding their cars in the first place? modding cars is not cheap, rational, or reliable. and yet everyone on this board does it. you cant start drawing arbitrary lines and say what is and what isn't okay to spend on a car to modify it.
besides, if this rational crap is what it comes down to, i'm gonna go get a gsx-r 1000 and lay waste to everyone. and i'll do it stock. with a warranty. and 40mpg. for cheap.
just my 2¢
do you think any production 4-cylinder engines were ever made to produce 300WHP naturally aspirated? no. can people make them? yes.
do you think FWD cars were ever meant to drag race? NO. they have to fight physics because the weight naturally shifts off the driving wheels. do people drag race them? YEP.
you can build an engine (regardless of manufacturer) to handle huge amounts of stress, either from FI or NA. if you think building the engine to handle this stress is cheating or something, why the hell is anyone modding their cars in the first place? modding cars is not cheap, rational, or reliable. and yet everyone on this board does it. you cant start drawing arbitrary lines and say what is and what isn't okay to spend on a car to modify it.
besides, if this rational crap is what it comes down to, i'm gonna go get a gsx-r 1000 and lay waste to everyone. and i'll do it stock. with a warranty. and 40mpg. for cheap.
just my 2¢
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From: wet Dreaming, over 400whp, USA
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (charliec)
AndyD i've always had respect for you, but you are close to being an *** in this thread. N/a guys will always be N/a and will die by it. Even if scientific facts prove otherwise they will stay stuff like "Fi is easy, n/a is hard"
Who cares? If your preference is n/a then so be it, but don't jump on some bs bandwagon and tell us we are wrong because we like Fi.
Who cares? If your preference is n/a then so be it, but don't jump on some bs bandwagon and tell us we are wrong because we like Fi.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,768
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From: Flowery Branch, Ga
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (AndyD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your example has no relavence to this discussion.....and I don't know too many people who will say it is a smart thing either. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Shut up n00b!
j/k Andy!
I agree; while Honda engineers may have had turbocharging in mind when designing stuff, the did NOT have it in mind when developing the motors it produced for its production cars. The article states that explicitly.....they wanted to master volumetric efficiency FIRST, and they're still working on that.
The article was completely about Honda's turbo racing motors. It's still a very interesting read, though! OTT, I'd be interested in that pic if you're willing to scan it up.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by miff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">AndyD, no offense, but that's utter bullshit. The ka24det was never meant for a turbo.......let's see how YOUR turbo ka24det Nissan does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You obviously have no clue what the hell you're talking about. True, the Ka24 was not built to be turbo'd.............technically. But if you look at the motor, it was designed VERY well to hold boost. You may find it interesting to note that on average, the KA stock block will make more horsepower safely than a stock block SR! Funny the "factory-designed turbo motor" can't handle the HP that the "factory-designed n/a motor" can handle.
Try making over 500 WHP on a stock H23
That's not to say it's pointless to build a motor for turbo, though. There's only so many things that are different from a factory n/a motor and a turbo motor. If you make the correct changes, the difference is minimal. It may take more money to make one motor handle the boost that another one can handle stock, but money isn't everything when building a performance car.
Shut up n00b!
j/k Andy!
I agree; while Honda engineers may have had turbocharging in mind when designing stuff, the did NOT have it in mind when developing the motors it produced for its production cars. The article states that explicitly.....they wanted to master volumetric efficiency FIRST, and they're still working on that.
The article was completely about Honda's turbo racing motors. It's still a very interesting read, though! OTT, I'd be interested in that pic if you're willing to scan it up.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by miff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">AndyD, no offense, but that's utter bullshit. The ka24det was never meant for a turbo.......let's see how YOUR turbo ka24det Nissan does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You obviously have no clue what the hell you're talking about. True, the Ka24 was not built to be turbo'd.............technically. But if you look at the motor, it was designed VERY well to hold boost. You may find it interesting to note that on average, the KA stock block will make more horsepower safely than a stock block SR! Funny the "factory-designed turbo motor" can't handle the HP that the "factory-designed n/a motor" can handle.
Try making over 500 WHP on a stock H23
That's not to say it's pointless to build a motor for turbo, though. There's only so many things that are different from a factory n/a motor and a turbo motor. If you make the correct changes, the difference is minimal. It may take more money to make one motor handle the boost that another one can handle stock, but money isn't everything when building a performance car.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 621
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From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (charliec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by charliec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ummm....my only response to all this is that i dont think engines have a "divine purpose" or something. its ignorant to say theres only one way to do something.
do you think any production 4-cylinder engines were ever made to produce 300WHP naturally aspirated? no. can people make them? yes.
do you think FWD cars were ever meant to drag race? NO. they have to fight physics because the weight naturally shifts off the driving wheels. do people drag race them? YEP.
you can build an engine (regardless of manufacturer) to handle huge amounts of stress, either from FI or NA. if you think building the engine to handle this stress is cheating or something, why the hell is anyone modding their cars in the first place? modding cars is not cheap, rational, or reliable. and yet everyone on this board does it. you cant start drawing arbitrary lines and say what is and what isn't okay to spend on a car to modify it.
besides, if this rational crap is what it comes down to, i'm gonna go get a gsx-r 1000 and lay waste to everyone. and i'll do it stock. with a warranty. and 40mpg. for cheap.
just my 2¢</TD></TR></TABLE>
do you think any production 4-cylinder engines were ever made to produce 300WHP naturally aspirated? no. can people make them? yes.
do you think FWD cars were ever meant to drag race? NO. they have to fight physics because the weight naturally shifts off the driving wheels. do people drag race them? YEP.
you can build an engine (regardless of manufacturer) to handle huge amounts of stress, either from FI or NA. if you think building the engine to handle this stress is cheating or something, why the hell is anyone modding their cars in the first place? modding cars is not cheap, rational, or reliable. and yet everyone on this board does it. you cant start drawing arbitrary lines and say what is and what isn't okay to spend on a car to modify it.
besides, if this rational crap is what it comes down to, i'm gonna go get a gsx-r 1000 and lay waste to everyone. and i'll do it stock. with a warranty. and 40mpg. for cheap.
just my 2¢</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
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From: Sportscar Heaven, England
Right I'm going to clear a few things up here, everyone feel free to post your views
As said, there would not be ureliability from the factory, espescially when Honda's engineers areable to make a 1,497cc engine reliably create 675hp on a conservative tune. as fr the underlined bit, I could ask a bee keeper the same question, or a bus driver etc.. but just because somone has an opinion on the matter doesn't make them qualified to factually answr the question. If you asked any knowledgable engine builder/tuner about this they will tell you that reliability is possible even with a modified factory NA Honda engine built for turbo.
Lets face it, alot of what you have just posted was opinionated, biased, and some parts even irrelevant. I posted this thread to try learn people new info, You'd think EVERYONE who read it would be grateful like most were to learn some Heritage of the company we all love.
And to ludetech:
I agreed VTEC wasn't designed for FI but by dialing out the valve overlap using adjustable cam followers/pullies it works brilliantly (Valve overlaps' purpose is to utilise the scavenging effect created by exhaust gasses merging in the collector ad out the pipes)
Originally Posted by AndyD
Your example has no relavence to this discussion. The example you posted was an engine that was designed like that from the factory. <u>People who are against FI Honda engines are talking about taking an engine that was NOT designed for FI and making it FI. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!</u>
Firstly you don't speak for everyone on this board so please limit yourself to your own opinion, and don't use up other peoples. Those other comments were vaugue not detailed. It was obvious to most I meant from the factory; and in no way shape or form did I say or indicate that I meant using say 10:1cr ona H22a with a turbo (an e.g.). Obviously any factory engine would be built with components to suit forced Induction
Let's see how your turbo Honda does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
To most people it was obvious what I meant Andy, I meant that Honda should have used turbochargers from the factory. Turbochargers as Firedrake (Brian) said belong on all cars. I belive he said this because of the most basic benefit of using a form of forced induction; Turbochargers on a properly tuned engine greatly increase volumetric efficiency.
Hondas VTEC technology is made for racing on a track, to be reliable. It wasn't meant to make a lot of power for short periods of time only to break down all the time.
Honda's VTEC system was originally the brainchild of Kiyoshi Kawashima who developed Tadashi Kume's CVCC system which also inspired hime to develop VVTLEC which was abbreviated to VTEC
VTEC technology was NOT made for racing on the track, it was first used on track in formula nippon. VTEC was Kiyoshi's solution to a long standing problem; Traditionally you had to cam the engine (choose the grind/size of the lobes on the camshaft) for making power low down (small ammount of lift short duration) or you could have High lift camshafts that barrely made any power untill high up in the rev range where the high lift and duration of the camshaft was utilised by the higher dynamic compression making all of its power high up.
Ever wondered why the old domestic V8 cars didnt rev very high at all!!?!!
So Kiyoshi designed this system so the performance could be had lw down and high up the rev range. There are now as you know many variations of the VTEC system, some for economy, some performance, some both. When this innovation was masterminded people said it would never take off, it was technology that was over 10 years ahead of its time. ow all the other manufacturers are copying it. And if you remember the 1987 CRX VTEC, the JDM vehicle was the first NA engine, that produced more than 100hp/Litre. So no VTEC was NOT made for racing although as you say the system is very reliable.
My 240SX will be turboed, make good power, and be reliable. That car is supposed to be turboed since the engine was designed with that in mind. And I will be able to make reliable HP without spending too much money. Upgrade the turbo, FMIC, and a <u>Jim Wolf ECU upgrade,</u> I am on my way to 300whp. That's smart in my opinion. Plus, I will have RWD. Not economical with Honda engines.
Firstly I'm not personally interested in your Nissan project as that definitely has NO RELEVANCE TO TURBOCHARGING HONDAs. I see your very excited about it, fair play, but this is definitly irrelevant. But while were on the subject, You can fully build a honda engine say a H22a for 400bhp with aftermarket driveshafts and have reliability. As long as it is professionally tuned, fully mappedignition tables.
I'm sure Firedrake can back me up on this, as long as you have correct A/F ratios throughout the rev range then your ignition timing map is then (after A/F ratio) the determining factor in performance and reliability. As long as you have a conservative tune with the timing, whilst still making sure the car feels responsive throughout the rev range then you should have no issues at all. It is all in the tune.
And as for chipping cars, you obviously don't know that that is a waaay more unreliable way to run a turboed car than to ave the fuel and ignition tables mapped proffesionally. Every car is different, every setup is different. All a ECU upgrade is, is a person's GUESS on what will make the car run well. who knows, your airbox, ITB and exhaustmay me very high flowing, causing the engine to run much leaner than expected by the chip programmer = meltdown.
So don't try to tell ME about whats reliable and whats not. I have nothing against you as a person, only your attitude.
And FYI; All factory turbo cars will sustain damage over time if the driver keeps on staying in boost ina high gear for like 20+seconds. Even though factory tuners for say nissan for example tune their cars extremly rich from the factory.
Wheras a badly tuned FI car may not even last a day.
You all are forcing your cars to take FI. It's amusing to see you all spend all this money TRYING to make the engine into something it was never meant to be. Spending lots of money TRYING to make an engine into something it wasn't meant to be just isn't my thing. I am into cheap HP, reliable, and fun. That's why I got a 240SX.
ok I covered that at the top, you misunder stood my thread opener.
If you are into spending lots of money making your motor FI, that's cool. It doesn't mean you are right.
lol Whatevver you say buddy
For as much as some of you FI guys have spent on your cars, I will be able to have the same amount of fun, if not more, driving my NA Prelude AND a FI Nissan.....and my bank account will still be healthy. HAHA
sigh, again who cares. This thread is about turbo'd Hondas
Whatever makes you happy. Expensive, unreliable HP isn't my thing....<u>and I don't know too many people who will say it is a smart thing either.</u>
Firstly you don't speak for everyone on this board so please limit yourself to your own opinion, and don't use up other peoples. Those other comments were vaugue not detailed. It was obvious to most I meant from the factory; and in no way shape or form did I say or indicate that I meant using say 10:1cr ona H22a with a turbo (an e.g.). Obviously any factory engine would be built with components to suit forced Induction
Let's see how your turbo Honda does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
To most people it was obvious what I meant Andy, I meant that Honda should have used turbochargers from the factory. Turbochargers as Firedrake (Brian) said belong on all cars. I belive he said this because of the most basic benefit of using a form of forced induction; Turbochargers on a properly tuned engine greatly increase volumetric efficiency.
Hondas VTEC technology is made for racing on a track, to be reliable. It wasn't meant to make a lot of power for short periods of time only to break down all the time.
Honda's VTEC system was originally the brainchild of Kiyoshi Kawashima who developed Tadashi Kume's CVCC system which also inspired hime to develop VVTLEC which was abbreviated to VTEC
VTEC technology was NOT made for racing on the track, it was first used on track in formula nippon. VTEC was Kiyoshi's solution to a long standing problem; Traditionally you had to cam the engine (choose the grind/size of the lobes on the camshaft) for making power low down (small ammount of lift short duration) or you could have High lift camshafts that barrely made any power untill high up in the rev range where the high lift and duration of the camshaft was utilised by the higher dynamic compression making all of its power high up.
Ever wondered why the old domestic V8 cars didnt rev very high at all!!?!!
So Kiyoshi designed this system so the performance could be had lw down and high up the rev range. There are now as you know many variations of the VTEC system, some for economy, some performance, some both. When this innovation was masterminded people said it would never take off, it was technology that was over 10 years ahead of its time. ow all the other manufacturers are copying it. And if you remember the 1987 CRX VTEC, the JDM vehicle was the first NA engine, that produced more than 100hp/Litre. So no VTEC was NOT made for racing although as you say the system is very reliable.
My 240SX will be turboed, make good power, and be reliable. That car is supposed to be turboed since the engine was designed with that in mind. And I will be able to make reliable HP without spending too much money. Upgrade the turbo, FMIC, and a <u>Jim Wolf ECU upgrade,</u> I am on my way to 300whp. That's smart in my opinion. Plus, I will have RWD. Not economical with Honda engines.
Firstly I'm not personally interested in your Nissan project as that definitely has NO RELEVANCE TO TURBOCHARGING HONDAs. I see your very excited about it, fair play, but this is definitly irrelevant. But while were on the subject, You can fully build a honda engine say a H22a for 400bhp with aftermarket driveshafts and have reliability. As long as it is professionally tuned, fully mappedignition tables.
I'm sure Firedrake can back me up on this, as long as you have correct A/F ratios throughout the rev range then your ignition timing map is then (after A/F ratio) the determining factor in performance and reliability. As long as you have a conservative tune with the timing, whilst still making sure the car feels responsive throughout the rev range then you should have no issues at all. It is all in the tune.
And as for chipping cars, you obviously don't know that that is a waaay more unreliable way to run a turboed car than to ave the fuel and ignition tables mapped proffesionally. Every car is different, every setup is different. All a ECU upgrade is, is a person's GUESS on what will make the car run well. who knows, your airbox, ITB and exhaustmay me very high flowing, causing the engine to run much leaner than expected by the chip programmer = meltdown.
So don't try to tell ME about whats reliable and whats not. I have nothing against you as a person, only your attitude.
And FYI; All factory turbo cars will sustain damage over time if the driver keeps on staying in boost ina high gear for like 20+seconds. Even though factory tuners for say nissan for example tune their cars extremly rich from the factory.
Wheras a badly tuned FI car may not even last a day.
You all are forcing your cars to take FI. It's amusing to see you all spend all this money TRYING to make the engine into something it was never meant to be. Spending lots of money TRYING to make an engine into something it wasn't meant to be just isn't my thing. I am into cheap HP, reliable, and fun. That's why I got a 240SX.
ok I covered that at the top, you misunder stood my thread opener.
If you are into spending lots of money making your motor FI, that's cool. It doesn't mean you are right.
lol Whatevver you say buddy
For as much as some of you FI guys have spent on your cars, I will be able to have the same amount of fun, if not more, driving my NA Prelude AND a FI Nissan.....and my bank account will still be healthy. HAHA
sigh, again who cares. This thread is about turbo'd Hondas
Whatever makes you happy. Expensive, unreliable HP isn't my thing....<u>and I don't know too many people who will say it is a smart thing either.</u>
Lets face it, alot of what you have just posted was opinionated, biased, and some parts even irrelevant. I posted this thread to try learn people new info, You'd think EVERYONE who read it would be grateful like most were to learn some Heritage of the company we all love.
And to ludetech:
I agreed VTEC wasn't designed for FI but by dialing out the valve overlap using adjustable cam followers/pullies it works brilliantly (Valve overlaps' purpose is to utilise the scavenging effect created by exhaust gasses merging in the collector ad out the pipes)
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
From: Sportscar Heaven, England
I'llscan upa few pictures and add a bit more info on what happened with various F1 F£ engines etc. Just gotta go out somewhere for 10mins. I'm gonna try buy some of that Weed Andy's been smoking, It seems like seriously strong sensimilla. lol.
Re: Dream H22 thread - ppl saying Turbochargers don't belong on Hondas.... (LudeyKrus)
Cliff Notes: It's my opinion, as I mentioned in the other thread. Who cares what my opinion is. It shouldn't affect you in ANY WAY. 
Shut up n00b!
j/k Andy!
I agree; while Honda engineers may have had turbocharging in mind when designing stuff, the did NOT have it in mind when developing the motors it produced for its production cars. The article states that explicitly.....they wanted to master volumetric efficiency FIRST, and they're still working on that.
The article was completely about Honda's turbo racing motors. It's still a very interesting read, though! OTT, I'd be interested in that pic if you're willing to scan it up.
You obviously have no clue what the hell you're talking about. True, the Ka24 was not built to be turbo'd.............technically. But if you look at the motor, it was designed VERY well to hold boost. You may find it interesting to note that on average, the KA stock block will make more horsepower safely than a stock block SR! Funny the "factory-designed turbo motor" can't handle the HP that the "factory-designed n/a motor" can handle.
Try making over 500 WHP on a stock H23
That's not to say it's pointless to build a motor for turbo, though. There's only so many things that are different from a factory n/a motor and a turbo motor. If you make the correct changes, the difference is minimal. It may take more money to make one motor handle the boost that another one can handle stock, but money isn't everything when building a performance car.
HAHA. Well said, Chase. I respect your opinion.
It's all good. Do what makes you happy. What does it matter what I think anyway? I think turboing a Honda motor is not the smartest idea. You think otherwise. Who cares.
When I mod my cars, I get the greatest excitement out of making the car perform well for the least amount of money. Obviously, the same doesn't hold true for the rest of you.
All I know is I am going to be having some fun in both my Prelude AND 240SX. That's all that matters to me.
As for the person who brought up the Ferrari. Actually, my feeling towards that car is I think it is nice. Would I pay all that money for the car. NOPE!! I get a kick out of cars like the STI, Evo 8, Type R, S2000, etc Budget cars that perform as well as other much higher $$ cars. That is impressive to me. Again, that is MY opinion.
Also, the dude who brought up the prices for the 240SX items. You are WAY off. No further discussion is required.
Actually, my KA24E motor will not see boost either. I will be getting a JDM SR20DET, CA18DET, or one of the RB2x motors. Like I said before, I mod within a budget. It's a better all around decision to get a new motor into my car and start from there. Exactly why I went with the JDM H22 over messing with my H23.
As for how it does on the track, I will let you know because that will come in the future.
Originally Posted by LudeyKrus
Shut up n00b!
j/k Andy!
I agree; while Honda engineers may have had turbocharging in mind when designing stuff, the did NOT have it in mind when developing the motors it produced for its production cars. The article states that explicitly.....they wanted to master volumetric efficiency FIRST, and they're still working on that.
The article was completely about Honda's turbo racing motors. It's still a very interesting read, though! OTT, I'd be interested in that pic if you're willing to scan it up.
You obviously have no clue what the hell you're talking about. True, the Ka24 was not built to be turbo'd.............technically. But if you look at the motor, it was designed VERY well to hold boost. You may find it interesting to note that on average, the KA stock block will make more horsepower safely than a stock block SR! Funny the "factory-designed turbo motor" can't handle the HP that the "factory-designed n/a motor" can handle.
Try making over 500 WHP on a stock H23
That's not to say it's pointless to build a motor for turbo, though. There's only so many things that are different from a factory n/a motor and a turbo motor. If you make the correct changes, the difference is minimal. It may take more money to make one motor handle the boost that another one can handle stock, but money isn't everything when building a performance car.
It's all good. Do what makes you happy. What does it matter what I think anyway? I think turboing a Honda motor is not the smartest idea. You think otherwise. Who cares.
When I mod my cars, I get the greatest excitement out of making the car perform well for the least amount of money. Obviously, the same doesn't hold true for the rest of you.
All I know is I am going to be having some fun in both my Prelude AND 240SX. That's all that matters to me.
As for the person who brought up the Ferrari. Actually, my feeling towards that car is I think it is nice. Would I pay all that money for the car. NOPE!! I get a kick out of cars like the STI, Evo 8, Type R, S2000, etc Budget cars that perform as well as other much higher $$ cars. That is impressive to me. Again, that is MY opinion.
Also, the dude who brought up the prices for the 240SX items. You are WAY off. No further discussion is required.
Originally Posted by miff
AndyD, no offense, but that's utter bullshit. The ka24det was never meant for a turbo, the sr20det was. There are striking differences between the two blocks, and to turbo a ka24det is roughly the same as trying to turbo an h23a. Unless you are planning to drop in the Silvia plant, you run into the same reliability problems as any other car. You also spend the same amount of money
Let's see how YOUR turbo ka24det Nissan does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
Let's see how YOUR turbo ka24det Nissan does on a real track (no GHEY dragstrip shyt) on stock internals over a years time.
As for how it does on the track, I will let you know because that will come in the future.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,889
Likes: 0
From: Orange County, CA
Re: (ralpheyizzle)
It all still boils down to opinions. If you think FI is best , build a FI motor. And vise versa. Ive always been a fan of whatever works. Upon heavily modifying any car, you are most defiantly have reliability and gas mileage issues. From what i understand, turbo'ed honda's are always in need of maintenance. There just seems to me more components that could go wrong/ cause a nuke. Its all preference.
Thanks for the awesome info OTT, gotta love honda history.
And by all means, going N/A is not friggin cheap. Yes it would have probably been cheaper to go FI, but there is just something about being able to take it to 8K and that vtec scream that always gets my heart pumpin.
Thanks for the awesome info OTT, gotta love honda history.
And by all means, going N/A is not friggin cheap. Yes it would have probably been cheaper to go FI, but there is just something about being able to take it to 8K and that vtec scream that always gets my heart pumpin.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
From: Sportscar Heaven, England
Re: (98TypeSH)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98TypeSH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...but there is just something about being able to take it to 8K and that vtec scream that always gets my heart pumpin.</TD></TR></TABLE>
How about a H22a reving to 12,000 allday and 13k true redline making over 300Whp!!! Hows that sound.
That was the F3 Honda engine that is still in use and in popular demand by the teams today.
Yes Im back, no luck with the weed though, seems Andy must have some minted contacts, Damn. I guess I'm just gonna have to go to Holland in November for the C*nn*bis Cup where you get to try all the different strains/breeds free. mmm.
Anyway, AndyD I hope you get whatever you want from your Nissan.
Fair do's to you.
Hell, maybe the mods will let people post up specs etc of their nissans come next April Fools. lol j/k
But whatever you decide on for your nissa and your lude, I hope they become everything you wanted.
I wanted to build a 300bhp H22a allmotor 14:1CR to go in a 92Civic hatch but I couldn't get 116oct fuel locally so It wouldn't be daily drivable.
IMO fully built allmotor engines are more fun t build and drive but as thats not currently an option, I'm opting for ultimate top-end thrust. A h22a turbocharged Civic. Yes it will be useless on the street below 4th due to the larger capacity engine creating excessive torque but top end thrust will be awesome and with slicks I'd like to aim for a low 10 or maybe even a high 9sec (We'll see. Only time'll tell) car using appx 300hp low boost, then whatever hp I can getaway with in the higher gears without it spinning, either way even at 300ish its not gonna hookup in 2nd.
Hey Andy, You want to take your lude to a track, I put lower grade tires on the rear of mine so instead of understeering the rear comes round on you very predictably, so then you have to go kamikazee (sp) and floor it so it pulls it straight.
FWD cars still perform well on track, its just you need to be a little suicidal when the tails goes. Its a minted rush anyhow! I reccomend everyone try it.
-
Back to pics, Im scanning a load now, just gotta upload them then itll be up
This has been great so far thanks everyone, Well I'm sure your all going to be surprised by some of the Info on Honda that Im gonna post, I know i was when I read it all!.
How about a H22a reving to 12,000 allday and 13k true redline making over 300Whp!!! Hows that sound.
That was the F3 Honda engine that is still in use and in popular demand by the teams today.
Yes Im back, no luck with the weed though, seems Andy must have some minted contacts, Damn. I guess I'm just gonna have to go to Holland in November for the C*nn*bis Cup where you get to try all the different strains/breeds free. mmm.
Anyway, AndyD I hope you get whatever you want from your Nissan.
Fair do's to you.
Hell, maybe the mods will let people post up specs etc of their nissans come next April Fools. lol j/k
But whatever you decide on for your nissa and your lude, I hope they become everything you wanted.
I wanted to build a 300bhp H22a allmotor 14:1CR to go in a 92Civic hatch but I couldn't get 116oct fuel locally so It wouldn't be daily drivable.
IMO fully built allmotor engines are more fun t build and drive but as thats not currently an option, I'm opting for ultimate top-end thrust. A h22a turbocharged Civic. Yes it will be useless on the street below 4th due to the larger capacity engine creating excessive torque but top end thrust will be awesome and with slicks I'd like to aim for a low 10 or maybe even a high 9sec (We'll see. Only time'll tell) car using appx 300hp low boost, then whatever hp I can getaway with in the higher gears without it spinning, either way even at 300ish its not gonna hookup in 2nd.
Hey Andy, You want to take your lude to a track, I put lower grade tires on the rear of mine so instead of understeering the rear comes round on you very predictably, so then you have to go kamikazee (sp) and floor it so it pulls it straight.
FWD cars still perform well on track, its just you need to be a little suicidal when the tails goes. Its a minted rush anyhow! I reccomend everyone try it.
-
Back to pics, Im scanning a load now, just gotta upload them then itll be up
This has been great so far thanks everyone, Well I'm sure your all going to be surprised by some of the Info on Honda that Im gonna post, I know i was when I read it all!.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
From: Sportscar Heaven, England
Re: (SUB-0 H23)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SUB-0 H23 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">blah nitrous>*
*runs and hides*</TD></TR></TABLE>
heheh
*runs and hides*</TD></TR></TABLE>
heheh