thinking bout selling my integra gsr for a nissan 240 sx swap with a sr20

how do they handle???

I never driven a rwd car...how do they do at autocrosses?

 

With the engine swap, you'd be in a really tough class I'd think..

If you had a stock GS-R, I'd say stick with that since the ITR and WRX are hitting D-Stock this year.. Your mods put you at least in STS which is pretty much an Imprezza 2.5 RS class, but locally it could be fun.

I would say 240sx + engine swap = not competitive at autox (except maybe locally) It would be fun, though, I'd think.. but then again, I think that driving anything around an autocross course would be fun..

 

A 240SX with an SR20DET has a lot of potential, IMO. It would make a great Street Mod car, and I think it would be near the top of the current heap of Street Mod cars.

The 240's have near 50-50 weight distribution, and RWD has an advantage over FWD (drive a 3,400-pound stock Camaro then drive a little FWD car, and you will understand ). You could get an easy 300 hp out of the DET, and if you could do it with a turbo that isn't very laggy and doesn't just slam into the boost (i.e., the gas pedal doesn't just become an ON/OFF switch), you would have a great autocross car.

You can find early (S13? -- '89-'94?) 240s in good shape for around $3,000.

 

The cars to have in SM are AWD cars like the Audi S4, Eclipse/Talon GSX or TSi, and the WRX. The 240SX is a bit heavy for a car and there is one locally that competes in STS with me. He does pretty well for his 1st year into this, but the aftermarket support is nil for that car really.

I'd stick to the INtegra and stay in stock class since like someone said the Type Rs and WRXs are getting kicked out of your class.

 

240SXs are GREAT handling cars saddled with a ho-hum engine. The DET swap would make that a brilliant car. It would be street mod car and a good one, IMO.

 

It's a few hundred pounds lighter than a DSM and it certainly is lighter than an S4.

Once a DET is dropped in, the "aftermarket support" factor greatly increases. Plenty of people have done the swap, so there's a ton of information out there. There's also a great deal of information on turbos from even non-Nissan people, so finding the right turbo probably wouldn't be a big deal.

As for suspension, I'm sure Ground Control has coil-overs available. Match that with a set of decent shocks and maybe bigger front sway bar, and you would have a 240SX that has the potential to run with the current big dogs of SM.

 

Having had my *** handed to me several times this past season, I'd say the 240 sx in the hands of a capable driver is a formidable competitor in STS. I don't know anything about the engine swap you mentioned, but they can hold their own with their stock motor. They do seem to like open courses -- ones with long sweepers and turns they can drift in. I was able to get as close as 1.5 secs. of the guy who kicked STS butt in the Atlanta region on a "tighter" course, but I'd be 3 secs. behind him in the longer more open courses... That guy can really drive!

 

I would tend to think that KA motor is pretty decent for autocrossing. The "truck motor" has a lot of low end compared to my B16 and would absolutely have the edge coming out of a turn way down low in 2nd gear. The car is also well balanced, and really doesn't weigh that much more than a late model Civic or Integra. I'd say it's very competitive...remember, the driver is the most important part.

 

Being new to my 240, I can't really say how competitive it would be. From the events I've done, I can say that it is capable of competing in STS and ES. SM is a whole other story - but I don't think it needs to have a different ending. Hopefully, I will have a swap in mine by next year and would be able to report on the results!

Presently, KA turbos (95-98 vintage) are also putting down over 300 on stock internals w/ tq numbers to match. SRs come in three flavors and come out of the box w/ 205-250 hp and 200 tq. There are US SRs running near 350 whp on stock internals, but they do have some exotic parts and too big turbos (for autox). Still, running w/ BPUs and the stock turbo or a small upgrade can yield 250-300 whp w/ a fair degree of reliability and a broad powerband. Power - either SR or KA, is not a problem.

The 240 with the swap will give you 51/49 weight distribution. LSD is an option (maybe a necessity with an SR pushing 300 whp ) that will greatly enhance the neutral traits of the chassis. The chassis itself is more rigid in the s14 (95-98) but the car weighs about 70 lbs more (2750 is luxo SE trim) that the s13 (89-93). Not that heavy for RWD. Factory brakes are adequate, but 300zx brakes are a bolt up affair

The comments on aftermarket are on point. The US aftermarket for the car is limited, to say the least. Adj. shocks for the s14 are limited to Konis (s13's get KYBs too). All the basic springs are available. Engine parts for the KA are hard to find, but plentiful once found - SR parts are a bit more exotic and rare (again, until you find a source). However, once you get whiff of the support for this car in Japan (and find a source), you can have anything you want. Generally the JDM parts are a bit more pricey, but often worth the money. Any type of suspension, chassis strengtheners, motor, brake, etc. parts are available.

Cost of a 240 is b/n $5000 - 14,000 for an s14 - depending mostly on year and condition. s13's go for b/n $tow it away - $5000. s13's with a swap (nice one on ebay now) cost b/n $7500 - 15,000 (for a built car). You are usually better off getting a front clip w/ the SR ($2500-6000 depending on year and condition) to do the swap yourself.

Still interested? Check out 240sx.org and the freshalloy message boards (particularly one called "Best of 240sx" located at the very bottom of the forums page) for more info. The 240 message board there is also a lot like this one in that there are a lot of knowledgable people, but stupid questions that could be searched are discouraged. I've got the same handle there, so mayble I'll see you around

 

Ditto what NEO said. The guy in the ATL STS class kicks everyone's butt! Very good handling car in the right hands.

 

Look here http://www.pdm-racing.com/features/240sx.html

He sponsors my Acura, rarely do I beat him in D/SP.

 

The cars to have in SM are AWD cars like the Audi S4, Eclipse/Talon GSX or TSi, and the WRX.

Maybe. The ultimate SM has not been found yet. I seriously doubt it will be one of those though. Lightweight cars will make up for AWD pigs any day that it does not rain.




RWD has an advantage over FWD (drive a 3,400-pound stock Camaro then drive a little FWD car, and you will understand

Huh? FS, GS and ES all go back and forth at every event for the fast time. The Cambirds and Mustangs have an advantage of torque and footprint and still only manage to beat GS 50% of the time. Let's not talk about how CSP beats ESP 90% of the time Heck, EP (Honda) even wipes out BSP, ASP and CP. All of those are RWD classes. On a chassis car, is RWD really faster? I know an EP honda that says no

 

50% of the time?! Do you have anything to back this up?

Let's talk about it. And then we can also talk about how BS regularly kicks the crap out of GS (probably 100% of the time).

My analogy was a based on driving a Sentra (which is hardly a lightweight and is roughly the same weight as just about any FWD Honda product except for CRX's and Civics HBs) to driving a Camaro. I would take a fat Camaro/Firebird/Mustang over any GS/ES/DS FWD car.

Ah yes, you can't forget EP. EP and CSP: the shining beacons of the Honda world. Thank god for CRX's and little Civic hatchbacks, otherwise we wouldn't be having these debates.

The discussion was originally about how a 240SX would fare in Street Mod. With the cars currently eligible for SM, RWD would be my choice to start with. We're all still waiting for that mad scary Civic hatchback that is going to put the smackdown in Street Mod, but it ain't here.

 

Its a great chassis with a truck motor. I was looking around for one when I bought my Talon but was suckered in by turbo power. If it came with a better motor here I would have bought one. After it went away there are no inexpensive, sporty rwd cars left...too bad. I particularly like the looks of the s13 notchback, and the front facia of the s14 is sweet too.

A friend has one and does very well locally with DSP preparation. It has basic bolt-on suspension and motor parts and runs equivalent times to me and my brother in his CSP civic. As a local autocrosser or track car, I think this thing would be great. I've driven it a few times and it is such a different experience than the honda. Broad torque curve is excellent, just gives up at the top end. SR20 (or det) would fix this. The chassis seems very rigid, response is good, balance is excellent. It was very controllable with that extra touch of power-on oversteer at exit. I imagine it handles similarly to a 944...same basic distribution and proportions.

On top of that they can be had for almost nothing. Seems that they are not in demand on the used market. The ones I looked at were in very good condition. I believe the only mechanical problem they have is with the oiling of the timing chain (no belt!) an it starts to tick at high mileage.

There's lots of info on the net to be had, although most people jump into a motor swap before doing serious work to the suspension. A handful of them were raced professionally, and there are suspension parts around as well, just not to the extent of the honda. I think there's a guy out of Texas that runs one in SCCA solo events and does well, but it isn't a national contender.

 

Look at the National Tours. I'm not going to go trolling through every archive just to prove a point, but if you are anxious enough to look, you won't see FS winning every event vs ES, GS. It's course dependent, bigtime.

BS vs. GS? Gimme a break. BS crushes FS as well. In a stock car, RWD will be superior if it is in a light and nimble chassis (miata). If you had originally said BS vs GS I wouldn't have said anything, but you mentioned an FS car vs a FWD car. There are a few FWD stock cars that are capable of beating the top FS cars.

Drive a stock Type R then drive a stock SE-R and see if you think the same thing; there is quite a difference. An SE-R is a good car, but not overly capable in a stock class. I personally can't stand a FS car and would much rather have a nimble GS car, because the times are gonna be close to the same. Again though...FS = a lot more HP and (especially) a lot more rubber on the road.

Good chassis, light weight and a good power/weight ratio. What more do you want out of an autox car? RWD is superior in a stock form, as said. However, start modding and it's a different ballgame. What makes FWD inferior in stock can be tuned out in SP and P.

It isn't here yet. It might be soon, who knows. SM drew in a lot of DSMs, Cambirds, BMWs, etc in the beginning. There hasn't really been anyone seriously try a civic. Heck, SM can't usually beat ESP, so what does that tell you about the level of the class so far? Now that it's a full-on class, we'll see what happens.

But back to the original discussion. Is a 240sx with motor swap a good SM car? Who knows. Try it and find out. I've seen far too many paper tigers running in SM here lately. Build it and let's see. I don't think it's *the* answer, but it might be ok if you keep power moderate and can run large enough wheels/tires.

Now, is RWD the answer to SM? In a close to stock condition it will be, but if someone does a FWD car correctly, why can't FWD win? Why does the EP honda dominate most all prepared classes? You would think AP, BP or CP would be faster, correct? Are they?

In reality, SM is limited by DOT rated tires. That will put a cap on any kind of high HP domination by a RWD car.

 

I know that the events I've been to that FS beat GS (Peru NT, Solo II Championships, 5 Pro Solos). The one time GS beat FS was at Meridian when FS ran in the wet on the 2nd day and GS ran in the dry and sunshine. How did you come up with 50%?

Hey, you're the one who brought up the comparison of cars that weigh under 2,000 pounds (CSP CRX's) vs cars that weigh over 3,000 pounds (ESP F Bodies). Comparing BS to GS is about as valid as that.

Capable, yes, but not 50% of the time with equal drivers. A stock SE-R is capable of beating FS, too, if the Kozlaks, Tziortsis, Lindberg, Sapp, etc., don't show up.

I would take a stock Type R over an SE-R, too. 190 hp, better limited slip, better suspension. Geez, that's a no brainer. But I would also take a Camaro over a Type R. Heck, I would take a crusty ol' 350ci 3rd-gen Camaro over a ground-pounding LS1 Camaro.

Close, but not the same given equal drivers in equal conditions.

A FWD car could win, and I would like to see a FWD car (even a Honda product ) take out the big dogs. The key, IMO, will be to get a FWD light enough so it can kick ***. But if somebody builds a SM Honda, it will be heavier than the top CSP or EP cars.

Yes, SM is a soft class, but as I said way at the top of the page, I think a properly setup and driven 240SX with an SR20DET "would be near the top of the current heap of Street Mod cars."

 

Perhaps 50% was an exaggeration, but it *does* happen. To say that FS is always faster than GS, DS, ES in the dry is not correct. And pros are a different ballgame...FS should win on launch alone.

Ok then, here's one for ya. How about CSP where it is Civic/CRX vs. Miata and RX3. Those races go either way. No dominance there by RWD cars.

The best driver in a SER has no chance of beating a 95% driver in FS. However, the best driver in other FWD DS, ES, GS cars has a very good chance of beating a 95% FS driver.

How many FS cars beat the top Type R out at Nationals this year? Maybe 2 or 3? And the 3rd gen Camaros are known to be the best in FS anyways.

Course dependant!!! Why do you refuse to acknowledge that DS, ES, GS has the ability to take out FS every now and then given equal conditions? Check out some of the west coast Tours and see what happened there.

We'll see what that heap looks like next year. No one has tried a 240sx anywhere in anything, so it's even more unproven than anything mentioned here. Truly a shot in the dark.

 

5.

It's still a Camaro, RWD, and weighs more than 3,000 pounds.

Driver dependant!!! (I thought I wasn't supposed to go trolling through past results? ) Competition in FS on the west coast is pretty weak. The past two years, there have been zero trophy winners at Nationals from west of the Continental Divide.

 

OK, so an R would have finished 6th out at Nats in FS. I believe it was just over a second from the lead (and .3 tenths out of second FYI). Still, not a complete blowout, and the guy who won FS is a *very* good driver. Not bad for a 2600lb FWD car with 225/50s on it making only 128 ft-lbs torque. Quite small numbers when comparing with an FS car.

Any hey, it's not my fault if the west coast drivers can't drive Camaros and Mudstains (oops, mustangs) very well


[Modified by Todd00, 8:33 PM 12/8/2001]