in a nutshell, I am building my gs-r this winter. all motor street build, 12:1 fully balanced with valvetrain built for 9000 +/- rpm. I am not doing this myself, i am sending it to a machine shop that regularly does hondas and need a little assistance with all the tricks you guys use when building. I want to know all the little tricks to building a motor (like how to improve oil flow through machining, etc) and I would like to dedicate this thread to that.

 

My hats off to you if you think people are just going to give away info that theyve aquired over years and years of R&D and $$$ spent...

Experience cant be bought or given away

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rick Solis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My hats off to you if you think people are just going to give away info that theyve aquired over years and years of R&D and $$$ spent...

Experience cant be bought or given away </TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow! Well put and so true.

 

Check with callmejesus, he seems to think he knows alot.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DonF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Check with callmejesus, he seems to think he knows alot.</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol...

 

Use OEM parts. Milled the head to max. Have a good header, i.e. Hytech, Toda or a DC 4-1 JDM. Good exhaust, i.e. Ktellers. And a good tuner, maybe 195, if not shy away.


Modified by BERT-O at 9:13 PM 9/10/2004

 

I suppose I am wasteing my time looking for help in our little honda community, I never thought i would feel that way about HT. Forgive me, but isnt the point of this site to do just that? share experience we have to benefit others? or are we all just here to **** and moan about altezzas and ricers?


I am not trying to **** everyone off, just a little dissapointed about the truism i have just encountered.

 

some things can be shared and others just cant. sorry if youre offended....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridvteceg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">some things can be shared and others just cant. sorry if youre offended....</TD></TR></TABLE>

not offended, just dissapointed

 

I kinda agree with you. I dont see why someone cant give you a hint, or point you in the right direction, but some builders have tricks that they use to pull clients in, etc. etc, and if thats their bread and butter, they arent just going to give it away for free.

 

Maybe if you asked specific questions about a specific process, you would get some help.
But to ask professionals who make their living to give up their secrets that they use, is a little bold, not to mention time consuming.
If you are paying someone to do your build, he should supply you with all his tricks anyway.

 

This phenomenon is not limited to the Honda or Import community. Its not even limited to the auto industry.

You have to remember that many people have built their liveleyhoods on these things. It is hard enough to get and stay ahead in the small business community without giving away your secrets.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe if you asked specific questions about a specific process, you would get some help.
But to ask professionals who make their living to give up their secrets that they use, is a little bold, not to mention time consuming.
If you are paying someone to do your build, he should supply you with all his tricks anyway.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am looking to get a solid 200 to the wheels, but I also want it to run for another 75k, i am looking for those things that, when done increase longevity and maintain motor integrity under harsh high rev conditions. Eg: ways to increase oil flow in the rod bearings and other critical places. I am going all the way... cryo treatment, shot peening, blah,blah... I am just completely ignorant as far as maching for these conditions... and i need to know what needs to be done to the block and head to match the performance of the motor overall

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ILuvJDMITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I am looking to get a solid 200 to the wheels, but I also want it to run for another 75k, i am looking for those things that, when done increase longevity and maintain motor integrity under harsh high rev conditions. Eg: ways to increase oil flow in the rod bearings and other critical places. I am going all the way... cryo treatment, shot peening, blah,blah... I am just completely ignorant as far as maching for these conditions... and i need to know what needs to be done to the block and head to match the performance of the motor overall</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your reply does nothing to improve your situation. You are basically asking for free information about an industry topic that is based on that information. Go pay someone to build it for you, or to show you how to do it yourself. That's what everyone else does. Seeing as how you are "going all the way", money should not be a problem, so go pay for your education.

 

you dont need any tricks to achieve 200 whp. its been done time and time again.
now if you were aiming for like 260 range or somethign, then i understand.
with that compression, the correct IHE,fuel management, nice cams, you already said your doing valvetrain. so i can see you hitting 200 whp.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SuperSlow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Your reply does nothing to improve your situation. You are basically asking for free information about an industry topic that is based on that information. Go pay someone to build it for you, or to show you how to do it yourself. That's what everyone else does. Seeing as how you are "going all the way", money should not be a problem, so go pay for your education. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I am paying to have it done as I would be completely incapable myself, I know I cant build a motor, so I stay the hell away from em. and money isnt really an issue,(not that I'm rich, but lets face it, it isnt a 10,000 dol turbo buildup either) I am not going for 400whp, just for a motor that is stable @9000 and a little extra HP. what I do know is that every detail must be covered, and I trust everyone here on HT sooo much more than any shop. If it come down to do I trust this guy who wants my money and I have never met or do I trust my faithful and reliable community of experts who dont want my money. I trust you. Simple as that. I dont want to go to a machine shop blind and expect that they will do things that will GAURENTEE I will run fine at 9000 + and 200 + hp. I really dont even know what the dyno will say when done, could be under 200, could be way over, i really dont care. I just want to drive the **** out of my car and know with confidence that because person X told me to have the machine shop do y and z while building, I dont have to worry about hitting 9500 every once and a while, and i dont have to worry about holding 8500 + for more than 1/4 mile. There is no reason to yell at me, i have never encountered such resistance for knowledge on this site

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by -iLLuZioN-B18C1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you dont need any tricks to achieve 200 whp. its been done time and time again.
now if you were aiming for like 260 range or somethign, then i understand.
with that compression, the correct IHE,fuel management, nice cams, you already said your doing valvetrain. so i can see you hitting 200 whp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I want to know some of these tricks, because I want to know I can keep running when the guy next to me snaps a rod, get what I am saying?

And I say 200, but the # is really irrelivant, I know its gonna be fast for a street car and thats all I care about other than reliability.


Let me Clarify... I DO NOT want HP secrets... I wouldnt ask for that to begin with, that is def something I respect about your profession and would not violate. I am asking for reliability secrets, you guys build cars that run 260 HP, Awesome, I am looking for help basically revving to 9500 for a longer duration, and with more reliability that the guy next to me with a built motor. I would also like to pull off on the guy who slapped in a turbo and cranked the boost to 15 lbs when he snaps a rod, get my drift?





Modified by ILuvJDMITR at 3:42 PM 8/28/2004

 

There is half your problem right there. You should NOT trust the people on this or any other board. More than half the people on here are retarded stunnas who don't know half as much as they think they do.

If you want to be reliable, just use factory honda parts. There are several people on here who have made 220+whp on factory bottom ends. 9500 rpm isn't much of a problem on a GSR/TypeR bottom end. If you want to be safe, you can just swap out the rods for aftermarket units and leave everything else factory.

 

well thus far the plan is:

12.1 ross pistons or ITR pistons with a shaved deck
eagle rods
arp fasteners
unsure about sleeveing
maybe moroso oil pan, something baffled
still working on flywheel prob Act
OEM gs-r crank/rod ratio etc.
HAsport motor mounts

ferra valves +1
skunk springs + retainers
cam undecided

All sent to 300 below
appropriate parts shot peened
appropriate parts coated
rotating mass balanced to &gt; .1g , all of it including flywheel


running power steering, no AC


Where do you think my HP will be when done correctly?

 

[QUOTE=ILuvJDMITR], i am sending it to a machine shop that regularly does hondas and need a little assistance with all the tricks you guys use when building.

Maybe you should send your block/head to another shop that has more knowledge with hondas, because maybe they don't know as much as it seems, or as much as they told you.
I don't think any "real" engine builder on here is going to reveal their secrets. Thats just what I think, truthfully if I was a "real" engine builder who produced reliable/fast motors I wouldn't be revealing my secrets either, especially on the net, sorry my friend.

 

well if I wasnt in NY I really wouldnt have a prob finding a superb machine shop (cali ) but I am, so i am looking for ammunition to take to a builder that is good with honda motors, and does alot, but doesnt have many honda tricks, there are more big blocks here than anything, and we all know as far as margin for error, tolerances, etc... ther is much more room to play in a 327, 350, 351, etc than their is in a high compression honda motor

 

for those that did help, but didnt post, thank you tons

 

One other piece of advise; if you are looking for longevity, don't use forged pistons. With very few exceptions the factory honda cast pistons will outlast aftermarket forged pistons.

Keep in mind that the forged pistons will put up with abuse better, so if you plan on using nitrous in the future it might be a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

talk ****, but you dont let me know. keep my name out of your mouth bitches.

first off, use factory bottom end pieces because you'll save yourself money that can be spent else where, wisely.
-crankshaft: have any balancing holes filled to reduce windage/whistling. then have the crank grinded/camfered, and balanced out with everything attached, ie: pistons/rods/rings/pins, flywheel/pressure plate, cam sprocket, belt pulley. next, have journals 1/3/5 all grinded to the same diameter for when the engine is assembled, you will want these the tightest. have a little more metal cut off journals 2/4 for these can remain slightly looser. have them all micro-polished, along with the thrust bearing journals.
-rods: shot-peened and polished, balanced out. then have all rods centered on the small end, then have the big end align-honed.
-pistons: have them balanced out and camfered on the skirt so they dont scratch your cylinder wall.
* floating pistons/rods will net you 5% hp over factory peices.
-cylinders: have them plateau honed to within 0.0010" piston-to-wall, using low tension rings.
-block: it needs to be align honed, checked for warpage, and milled accordingly.
bearings: journals 1/3/5 sholud have 0.0015-0.0017" clearance, while 2/4 should have 0.0020"-0.0022.

get PEP valves becase they are the best, and cheapest valve on the market right now. they also come with plenty of margin so you can get them back/face cut if you would so like.
-intake ports: simply clean out the flashing using 80 grit on the IM side, while working 120 grit towards the valve seat. remember, youre not there to take mucho material away, just to clean up the casting and clean it up. the port divider should have a nice round nose to it, so it breaks the air smoothly. flatten the port floor also.
-exhaust port: keep the ports as round as possible, and as near stock diameter as possible. but your going to take these ports a step further, they will be polished. you want these polished because after 5,000 miles, your gonna spray some water down your intake at 8,000 rpm's to blast all that carbon out of your engine. do this religiously every 5,000 miles.
-valve seats: tungsten.
-valve job: a good 5 angle will suffice, and make sure the valve sits deep in the chamber. you can get the face of the valve cut to help improve flow at higher rpm's, but it will decrease tumble at low rpm's.
-valve springs: Ferrea single spring dohc vtec spring with Alum-Mag retainers because they are lighter than Ti and have 85% of the strength. just remember, dual valve springs are for turbo engines and idiots who think they know how to build n/a engines.
-combustion chambers: get them cc'd, and machined accordingly so compression is theoretically even across the board. for n/a, you want the chamber to be smooth, but some sharp joints arent going to spell disaster by becoming pesky detonation points.
-rocker arms: have them balanced out so no harmonics are created in the top end.
-get some 3m pad, the white, and work your way through the cam jounrals, but dont spend a lot of time in any one. just wipe it back and forth about 4-5 times, and move to the next. do this to the caps also.

use black moly on all bearings; crank/cam, and have red moly used on rocker pads, and all else.

what else? paint your **** and make it look nice.

good luck.


side note: looks we have a bunch of bill gates jr's in this place.
nas, "*****s fear what they dont understand, hate what they cant conquer, guess its just the fury of man."

 

er...CallMeJesus ...talking out your *** or not...at least you had something ... helpful and better yet, on the initial point of this thread.

little less 'tude though

 

How do you spin-balance a crank with the rods attached?




Modified by Suprdave at 10:19 PM 8/28/2004