As far as modifying the overall suspension of a car goes, how would you determine whether or not you were to need a sway bar in the rear, or a rear tower bar would be more beneficial? I was talking to a person who told me that sometimes it's not always good to have the rear too tight or something like that, it can negatively affect your handling on a FF car. I am running a 94 Civic Coupe with the Tein Type Basic Damper and I'm dropping in a b18c with lsd. I'm trying to find out what is the best suspension setup to run on this car as far as sway bars, struts bars, tie bars, etc, to place on the car. All I know is that the more is not always the better. Any factual info is appreciated.

 

The strut tower bar is not suspension, that is chassis stiffening. You want your suspension to move and your chassis/shell not to move. People will argue the how much chassis stiffening items like strut bars will do but most will not argue that the chassis itself should be as stiff as possible so the suspension can do it's job.

Sway bars are suspension items and should be used to balance the handling and roll stiffness.

 

see what you like and dislike about the car's handling and then fix the problems

 

That is a lot easier said than done. Pretty much that would be impossible imo without years of first-hand experience with suspension tweaking I guess you could say. There are probably few people who could really do that.

Most people just bolt on everything they can, and I don't think that always helps.

 

The #1 most important part of suspension setup is determining exactly what you are tuning the suspension for.

Without knowing that its kinda hard to make suggestions.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The #1 most important part of suspension setup is determining exactly what you are tuning the suspension for.

Without knowing that its kinda hard to make suggestions.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Or you can just do the same thing all of the fast drivers in your class are doing and then convince yourself that you can adapt your driving technique to fit since you're probably driving all wrong anyway.

-travis, who may or may not be able to relate...

 

Very true. I'll look into it, maybe get a rear sway bar and see if I think it improves anything. Thanks guys.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is a lot easier said than done. Pretty much that would be impossible imo without years of first-hand experience with suspension tweaking I guess you could say. There are probably few people who could really do that.

Most people just bolt on everything they can, and I don't think that always helps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are a LOT of people in this forum that have 'years of first-hand experience' tweaking suspensions (myself not being one of them). What they are saying is: we can't tell how to 'improve' your suspension until you tell us what you are trying to accomplish. What is this set-up for: autox, road race, drifting? Each will get you different answers...

Help us help you

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As far as modifying the overall suspension of a car goes, how would you determine whether or not you were to need a sway bar in the rear, or a rear tower bar would be more beneficial? I was talking to a person who told me that sometimes it's not always good to have the rear too tight or something like that, it can negatively affect your handling on a FF car. I am running a 94 Civic Coupe with the Tein Type Basic Damper and I'm dropping in a b18c with lsd. I'm trying to find out what is the best suspension setup to run on this car as far as sway bars, struts bars, tie bars, etc, to place on the car. All I know is that the more is not always the better. Any factual info is appreciated.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Have you aligned and cornerweighted the car yet?
What's the intended use of the car?
What's your level of experience?
What tires will you be using? R compounds? Slicks? Street tires?
Will you auto-x or open - track?
Do you have any preferences as to how the car should handle? Neutral? Slight understeer? Oversteer? Etc.?
You've got to have (even if it's vague) an idea of what you want out of the car - asking for an optimal ubiquotous set-up is hard to begin with, but even harder if you're not even sure of how you want the car to handle, and what you're going to be doing with it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is a lot easier said than done. Pretty much that would be impossible imo without years of first-hand experience with suspension tweaking I guess you could say. There are probably few people who could really do that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well get out there then. What don't you like about the car and what do you like? What would you like to improve? Have you taken it to a track / auto-x course yet? Have you set a baseline or benchmark for the car.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most people just bolt on everything they can, and I don't think that always helps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That statement contradicts your statement below.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Very true. I'll look into it, maybe get a rear sway bar and see if I think it improves anything. Thanks guys</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why would you go and do that?

 

I would go and do that TO SEE IF IT IMPROVES ANYTHING. I am not contradicting myself. In the first statement I was talking about bolting on everything- whereas the second was about just a rear sway bar. I do not have all the other bolt ons already on the car, but thanks. Man, seriously, why do you people always gotta try and put people down for asking questions or just be smartasses here on h-t? Get a life.
I know what I'm looking to get out of the car. I can answer those questions but I would rather not now, I don't think it will help because I don't think you guys could develop a great enough response in what all to do to modify the car so that it will improve its suspension. At least not to the best of its potential.

So, thanks anyways but I'd rather not take your word for it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Man, seriously, why do you people always gotta try and put people down for asking questions or just be smartasses here on h-t?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nobody put you down. Stop being a over-sensitive asshat. [now, that IS putting you down]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know what I'm looking to get out of the car. I can answer those questions but I would rather not now, I don't think it will help because I don't think you guys could develop a great enough response in what all to do to modify the car so that it will improve its suspension.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then go waste somebody else's time. We can't help you if you don't tell us what's wrong. What you've just done is akin to going to the ER, saying "Help, I'm sick", then getting mad when the doctor asks what's wrong.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would go and do that TO SEE IF IT IMPROVES ANYTHING. I am not contradicting myself. In the first statement I was talking about bolting on everything- whereas the second was about just a rear sway bar. I do not have all the other bolt ons already on the car, but thanks. Man, seriously, why do you people always gotta try and put people down for asking questions or just be smartasses here on h-t? Get a life.
I know what I'm looking to get out of the car. I can answer those questions but I would rather not now, I don't think it will help because I don't think you guys could develop a great enough response in what all to do to modify the car so that it will improve its suspension. At least not to the best of its potential.

So, thanks anyways but I'd rather not take your word for it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not to defend anyone who is a smartass, but when someone asks a question about something as complicated as a suspension or handling issue, the questioner needs to understand the basics of how certain suspension components affect the handling/ride/balance/response of their car. Asking blanket questions about items like anti-roll bar, first you should know what the bar (f or r) does to the handling response of the car. The honda-tech archives are full of inquiries like yours, many of which are very valuable - all you need to do is search and read. If that fails and you understand what you want your car to do, then ask a specific question and there are many people on honda-tech that can help.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What you've just done is akin to going to the ER, saying "Help, I'm sick", then getting mad when the doctor asks what's wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Happens to me every day.

-travis, who wishes he could just scream "USE THE SEARCH BUTTON" to some of his patients.

 

listen, we're trying to help you, but youre not helping us help you. youre asking whats "BEST", well best for what? and define "best". ill give you a hint, there is no "BEST" in racing, only "FASTEST" and theres a lot more involved in being fastest than spouting out some kind of laundry list of modifications.

youre one of the countless newbies who come on this forum wanting to "talk" about suspensions and "setups" as if we could give a rats ***. we're here to race first, and THEN talk about racing. at the very minimum, drive your damn car, tell us what its doing, tell us your goals, and then we can have a discussion. anything else, youre ******* wasting both yours and OUR time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would go and do that TO SEE IF IT IMPROVES ANYTHING. I am not contradicting myself. In the first statement I was talking about bolting on everything- whereas the second was about just a rear sway bar. I do not have all the other bolt ons already on the car, but thanks. Man, seriously, why do you people always gotta try and put people down for asking questions or just be smartasses here on h-t? Get a life.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not a "sway bar." It's an anti-roll bar.

Man, seriously, why do all you people looking for help always come off thinking you know everything? Get a life.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I know what I'm looking to get out of the car. I can answer those questions but I would rather not now, I don't think it will help because I don't think you guys could develop a great enough response in what all to do to modify the car so that it will improve its suspension. At least not to the best of its potential.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then answer them, genius. So far, your most profound input has been "blah blah rear anti-roll bar bolt - on blah blah" you haven't addressed a single inquiry: you have yet to tell us what you're intending to do with your car, captain.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So, thanks anyways but I'd rather not take your word for it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well alrighty then.
Enjoy that armchair and remote control; make sure to slow mo the ultra tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite FF drifto - maybe it'll ellucidate your queries for you.
"Everything I've learned, I've learned from Inital D ... Hey guys, watch this..."

 

just because i dont have a lot of posts on honda-tech doesnt mean i am not big into the scene. i have been in the scene for a long time and work for a very large company, not to mention run 3 big websites for different companies. i design ads in super street, hci, etc... I'm not bragging about anything, im just showing that I do know something. I was just wondering about basically what is really recommended for a suspension setup. sorry if i was too broad. props to you for quoting me and responding to each one. that's really easy to do and doesnt take much really. ill be the better person and say that you win the argument. mad props, mad props.


Thanks to all who tried to help me.

Oh yea-- and it is also called a sway bar you moron. 2 names for one thing. nice try.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just because i dont have a lot of posts on honda-tech doesnt mean i am not big into the scene. i have been in the scene for a long time and work for a very large company, not to mention run 3 big websites for different companies. i design ads in super street, hci, etc... I'm not bragging about anything, im just showing that I do know something. I was just wondering about basically what is really recommended for a suspension setup. sorry if i was too broad. props to you for quoting me and responding to each one. that's really easy to do and doesnt take much really. ill be the better person and say that you win the argument. mad props, mad props.


Thanks to all who tried to help me.

Oh yea-- and it is also called a sway bar you moron. 2 names for one thing. nice try.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Wow, that's sooooooooooooooooo tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite that you work for those "big co's" and you work with "super street." That's so cool!

I know you're not really bragging ... just name dropping. Well done.

What's the "scene"? Are you still high school? Is the prom coming up soon?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was just wondering about basically what is really recommended for a suspension setup.</TD></TR></TABLE>

In the "scene," is it customary to talk a lot, say nothing and understand less?

Oh, and the correct term is "anti-roll" bar. Put down the crayons and pick up a book. Suspension tuning is married to the concept of adjusting, minimizing and effecting roll; hence, anti-roll bar: as in, the elimination therof.

Enjoy your time "in the scene" Captain. Good luck getting elected scene president.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF DRFT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just because i dont have a lot of posts on honda-tech doesnt mean i am not big into the scene. i have been in the scene for a long time and work for a very large company, not to mention run 3 big websites for different companies. i design ads in super street, hci, etc... I'm not bragging about anything, im just showing that I do know something. I was just wondering about basically what is really recommended for a suspension setup. sorry if i was too broad. props to you for quoting me and responding to each one. that's really easy to do and doesnt take much really. ill be the better person and say that you win the argument. mad props, mad props.


Thanks to all who tried to help me.

Oh yea-- and it is also called a sway bar you moron. 2 names for one thing. nice try.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Jesus christ! So you know something about designing websites and ads? But you ask a broad question that has no actual real answer, it just raises more questions. These guys are asking you what you want to accomplish and you're getting offended by it? Give me a break, there's more knowledge about suspension setups on this board than anywhere on the web. If you answer the questions you will see that there are many good answers.

Now be forwarned that the answers might not be what you're looking for. They may suggest that you change nothing on the car at all, and just go out and get some track time.

 

In racing, whether its auto-x or road racing, there isn't a "scene". Scene is generally referred to those who attend car shows, that's called the "show car scene". In racing, its just racing man, and there is no "scene". I guess that's because racers don't get into racing to be "seen".

Before you go out and spend your next Super Street check on something for your car that won't achieve what you're looking for, get some track or auto-x time in addition to picking up a basic book on handling (see below for a short list). And, if possible, find a driving mentor who can help you understand how to drive fast and also point out what your car is doing on the track or auto-x course. A mentor can help you get up to speed much faster than if you just rely on your own learning curve - unless your last name happens to be Shumacher. Try as hard as you can to wade through the book(s), and try to relate what is happening with your car to what is said in the book. This way you'll be able to make an intelligent decision on what suspension components you'll need to either modify or buy. If you just start buying anti-roll bars and stiff springs and stiff dampers, not only will your girlfriend refuse to ride in your car, but you will be put off on the whole racing "scene".

Books For Handling, Suspension, and More.

1. Fred Puhn, "How to Make your Car Handle", an oldie but goodie that is intermediate in complexity (1981) about $20
2. Carrol Smith, "Tune to Win", an advanced book that describes in excruciating detail what almost every suspension engineer or dedicated racer could ever want to know. 1977 and about $25.
3. Don Alexander, "High Performance Handling" a decent book for those who want only a conceptual description (as opposed to mathematical treatment) of how to improve your car. (2002) about $20.
4. Milliken and Milliken, "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics". Awesome advanced book on all aspects of vehicle dynamics including suspension, tires, aero, and more. (1995) about $90.

For you, I would recommend 1 and 3, since 2 and 4 are really advanced and are recommended as a future book if you decide you want a more thorough approach to handling.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In racing, whether its auto-x or road racing, there isn't a "scene".

Scene is generally referred to those who attend car shows, that's called the "show car scene".

In racing, its just racing man, and there is no "scene".

I guess that's because racers don't get into racing to be "seen".</TD></TR></TABLE>

!

 

could someone just tell me exactly what to buy so i dont have to find my own best setup. please.

 

For road racing not 1/4 mile. do you want some oversteer but how much for civics?

i have trail braking oversteer right now.

is lift oversteer desirable on road racing?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by euclid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">could someone just tell me exactly what to buy so i dont have to find my own best setup. please.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Buy Michael's old F1 car, I hear it handles great and doesn't need a thing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Buy Michael's old F1 car, I hear it handles great and doesn't need a thing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
tell that to this guy