Easy Understeer Question
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Easy Understeer Question
just got back from another fun HPDE weekend. And had a question:
When in a corner and I have the steering wheel turned (lets say 30%) and the car is understeering, The instructor said that if I turn the steering wheel even more (lets say another 40%) it does not matter, as I have already exceeded the tires grip and will not go in that direction.
This I understand, But What I want to know is, What do I do in this situation? Giving more gas in this situation will make things worse-correct?? Is the correct thing to do is ease up on the throttle? (Only thing is, I found myself in the corner going faster than I could handle; understeering and my instinct was to give it more gas and point where I wanted to go)
Where should the steering wheel be? Should it be kept where it is, once it starts to understeer? Turned back in the other direction?
On one of the laps that the instructor drove my car, I think he used the handbrake as the car started to understeer-a couple of times, Is this one of the ways that you all would drive an understeering car around a track.
When in a corner and I have the steering wheel turned (lets say 30%) and the car is understeering, The instructor said that if I turn the steering wheel even more (lets say another 40%) it does not matter, as I have already exceeded the tires grip and will not go in that direction.
This I understand, But What I want to know is, What do I do in this situation? Giving more gas in this situation will make things worse-correct?? Is the correct thing to do is ease up on the throttle? (Only thing is, I found myself in the corner going faster than I could handle; understeering and my instinct was to give it more gas and point where I wanted to go)
Where should the steering wheel be? Should it be kept where it is, once it starts to understeer? Turned back in the other direction?
On one of the laps that the instructor drove my car, I think he used the handbrake as the car started to understeer-a couple of times, Is this one of the ways that you all would drive an understeering car around a track.
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From: I started it
Re: Easy Understeer Question (carblegal)
What RJ said. It will feelreally spooky while you're learning it...turning the wheel "less" to turn the car more...but it is a fix.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carblegal »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">On one of the laps that the instructor drove my car, I think he used the handbrake as the car started to understeer-a couple of times, Is this one of the ways that you all would drive an understeering car around a track.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No. All you're doing is applying a slower band aid to an already-made mistake. Pulling the ebrake causes a pretty violent change in the grip of the vehicle and could be unpredictable. Left foot braking IMO is a more viable option.
And...that sounds kind of reckless for an instructor to be pulling that kind of stuff in a student car
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carblegal »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">On one of the laps that the instructor drove my car, I think he used the handbrake as the car started to understeer-a couple of times, Is this one of the ways that you all would drive an understeering car around a track.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No. All you're doing is applying a slower band aid to an already-made mistake. Pulling the ebrake causes a pretty violent change in the grip of the vehicle and could be unpredictable. Left foot braking IMO is a more viable option.
And...that sounds kind of reckless for an instructor to be pulling that kind of stuff in a student car
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Re: Easy Understeer Question (.RJ)
So when I start to drift (for lack of a better word) to the outside of the corner because of understeer. I would open the steering wheel (I assume not turn as tight into the corner) and ease up on the throttle, Wouldnt I head towards the outside of the corner? and into the dirt?
When I and How would I turn the wheel to make it through the corner? Sorry for the newbie questions as I am still learning.
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Re: Easy Understeer Question (carblegal)
Karl is right that it feels very wrong when you first do it but steering less can make the front tires grip - and turn - more. I caught myself having to do that a couple times in races this past weekend.
The real solution though is to slow down more before you enter the corner, and/or set yourself up for a later apex.
I've also determined that my car now responds better to a more agressive turn-in. If I make the transition a little later and a little more quickly that is my typical tendency, the rear tires get into the game more effectively and more quickly. It's still something short of "pitching it at the corner" but it is more assertive than I am used to.
You are discovering why stock cars are built with understeer in the first place, by the way. Your natural reaction - turning in more - just slows things down so the accident happens at a lower speed and with the nose leading the way rather than the ***-end...
K
The real solution though is to slow down more before you enter the corner, and/or set yourself up for a later apex.
I've also determined that my car now responds better to a more agressive turn-in. If I make the transition a little later and a little more quickly that is my typical tendency, the rear tires get into the game more effectively and more quickly. It's still something short of "pitching it at the corner" but it is more assertive than I am used to.
You are discovering why stock cars are built with understeer in the first place, by the way. Your natural reaction - turning in more - just slows things down so the accident happens at a lower speed and with the nose leading the way rather than the ***-end...
K
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Re: Easy Understeer Question (carblegal)
when you're understeering your tires are just sliding, and not gripping. easing up on the wheel slighty lets the front tires grip. Because of this you will actualy turn more because your tires are working.
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Re: Easy Understeer Question (ewaugh)
I was going to say something smart, but these guys pretty much covered it. (post ***** time then)
I will just give Knestis a for his first weekend at CMP instead. Where at least i was having some horrible understeer where none of the above was working.. i was almost having to get out, and pull the front end around with a floor jack.. which once the slowing down, and LFB, and lifting off the throttle doesn't work, seems like a viable option.
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
I will just give Knestis a
for his first weekend at CMP instead. Where at least i was having some horrible understeer where none of the above was working.. i was almost having to get out, and pull the front end around with a floor jack.. which once the slowing down, and LFB, and lifting off the throttle doesn't work, seems like a viable option. Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
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Re: Easy Understeer Question (carblegal)
All above is good advice IMHO. If you want to get comfortable with the technique without freaking out on track...find a BIG and EMPTY lot after it has rained (or during) and drive in a circle gradually increasing speed while keeping the steering steady. Eventually you will start to understeer. Once this happens ease back on the gas and open the wheel slightly. You will be amazed at how much grip comes back in the front and suddenly it is going where you want it to. Since you are going at low speed things happen a lot slower and it is easier to figure out what is going on.
We teach this technique at our autocross schools and it is like watching a lightbulb come on when people discover how it works for the first time. If you ever have a chance to do one of the BSR schools at Summit Point (not sure where you are from) They do this on a wet and painted skid pad with bald tires. An absolute blast and a great teacher.
We teach this technique at our autocross schools and it is like watching a lightbulb come on when people discover how it works for the first time. If you ever have a chance to do one of the BSR schools at Summit Point (not sure where you are from) They do this on a wet and painted skid pad with bald tires. An absolute blast and a great teacher.
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From: Johntown, NY, USA
Re: Easy Understeer Question (RexRacer19)
The other reason to reduce steering angle is that the tires are turned into the corner more than you actually want the car to turn. If you reduce the power a bit and gain some traction in the front end, the front of the car will try to turn you into the inside too much which can make for a rather wild ride.
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From: Hammonton, NJ
Re: Easy Understeer Question (RexRacer19)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All above is good advice IMHO. ...
... is like watching a lightbulb come on when people discover how it works for the first time. If you ever have a chance to do one of the BSR schools at Summit Point (not sure where you are from) They do this on a wet and painted skid pad with bald tires. An absolute blast and a great teacher. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Skid Pad Sessions Rule!
It was the third time out that I had a great instructor, and/or I was ready and willing to understand what to do on the skid pad with BSR. It was the first time an instructor actually explained and let us experiment with understeer. Yep exactly like you said... "like watching a lighbulb come on...". Or words like "wow" or "holly" and "crap" were bounced around between the students.
http://www.bsr-inc.com/RDS.HTM
Unwinding the wheel,... or slower into turn, unwind and gas on.
It's also good to see a post where someone doesn't ask, how to change the car (what tires to use or camber settings or whatever). Change the driver first then work on the car.
Good luck
... is like watching a lightbulb come on when people discover how it works for the first time. If you ever have a chance to do one of the BSR schools at Summit Point (not sure where you are from) They do this on a wet and painted skid pad with bald tires. An absolute blast and a great teacher. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Skid Pad Sessions Rule!
It was the third time out that I had a great instructor, and/or I was ready and willing to understand what to do on the skid pad with BSR. It was the first time an instructor actually explained and let us experiment with understeer. Yep exactly like you said... "like watching a lighbulb come on...". Or words like "wow" or "holly" and "crap" were bounced around between the students.
http://www.bsr-inc.com/RDS.HTM
Unwinding the wheel,... or slower into turn, unwind and gas on.
It's also good to see a post where someone doesn't ask, how to change the car (what tires to use or camber settings or whatever). Change the driver first then work on the car.
Good luck
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Re: Easy Understeer Question (carblegal)
Your car is wrong-wheel-drive. Buy a Miata. 
Seriously, the above posts pretty much cover it. Open the steering wheel a bit (just enough so the tires start to grip again) and ease off the go-pedal (just a bit, if you lift completely, you could initiate oversteer).
Seriously, the above posts pretty much cover it. Open the steering wheel a bit (just enough so the tires start to grip again) and ease off the go-pedal (just a bit, if you lift completely, you could initiate oversteer).
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From: Somewhere, doing a rain dance.
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You are discovering why stock cars are built with understeer in the first place, by the way. Your natural reaction - turning in more - just slows things down so the accident happens at a lower speed and with the nose leading the way rather than the ***-end...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This reminds me of my most recent encounter at CostCo. Friend of mine buying two tires due to low tread on the rear pair. The front pair is okay, but not great. I asked my friend if he wanted the good pair on the front. The tire guy pipped up and said that they could only install new tires on the rear because "it's safer". He said Michelin did some mythical study and found it was safer.
BS. It's not safer, its CYA. If a customer hits a guardrail with the back end of the car, they sue the tire installer... if they hit what they're looking at, they don't sue. Once again, BASIC driver education takes a backseat to the idiotproofing of the automobile. It would be so cheap to just teach basic car control.
I know, I know, preaching to the choir. Rant over.
You are discovering why stock cars are built with understeer in the first place, by the way. Your natural reaction - turning in more - just slows things down so the accident happens at a lower speed and with the nose leading the way rather than the ***-end...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This reminds me of my most recent encounter at CostCo. Friend of mine buying two tires due to low tread on the rear pair. The front pair is okay, but not great. I asked my friend if he wanted the good pair on the front. The tire guy pipped up and said that they could only install new tires on the rear because "it's safer". He said Michelin did some mythical study and found it was safer.
BS. It's not safer, its CYA. If a customer hits a guardrail with the back end of the car, they sue the tire installer... if they hit what they're looking at, they don't sue. Once again, BASIC driver education takes a backseat to the idiotproofing of the automobile. It would be so cheap to just teach basic car control.
I know, I know, preaching to the choir. Rant over.
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From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Crack Monkey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your car is wrong-wheel-drive. Buy a Miata.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a true fact.
Scott, who's lightbulb is dimly glowing...faintly flickering...DOOOOOOHHHHH!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a true fact.
Scott, who's lightbulb is dimly glowing...faintly flickering...DOOOOOOHHHHH!
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Re: Easy Understeer Question (racerjon1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... I will just give Knestis a for his first weekend at CMP instead. ... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks, Jon. I enjoyed the track and the people, and appreciate your input and support. It was great meeting you.
K
for his first weekend at CMP instead. ... </TD></TR></TABLE>Thanks, Jon. I enjoyed the track and the people, and appreciate your input and support. It was great meeting you.
K
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From: Future Site of the Runoffs, USA
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Crack Monkey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your car is wrong-wheel-drive. Buy a Miata.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i second that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i second that.
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From: HP, NC, USA
Re: Easy Understeer Question (tnord)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i second that. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh no...here we go!
Why don't you miata boyz take your little chick cars and proudly do some tire smokin donots in a big parking lot somewhere while I sit and watch, then we'll go to a road course where I'll kick yo butz with my understeering VTEC pig.
Heh heh. Let the flames begin
i second that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Oh no...here we go!
Why don't you miata boyz take your little chick cars and proudly do some tire smokin donots in a big parking lot somewhere while I sit and watch, then we'll go to a road course where I'll kick yo butz with my understeering VTEC pig.
Heh heh. Let the flames begin
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From: One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Track rat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Oh no...here we go!
Why don't you miata boyz take your little chick cars and proudly do some tire smokin donots in a big parking lot somewhere while I sit and watch, then we'll go to a road course where I'll kick yo butz with my understeering VTEC pig.
Heh heh. Let the flames begin </TD></TR></TABLE>
How 'bout I squish your silly little wrong-wheel-drive V-TEK box with my 4x4?
Oh no...here we go!
Why don't you miata boyz take your little chick cars and proudly do some tire smokin donots in a big parking lot somewhere while I sit and watch, then we'll go to a road course where I'll kick yo butz with my understeering VTEC pig.
Heh heh. Let the flames begin
</TD></TR></TABLE>How 'bout I squish your silly little wrong-wheel-drive V-TEK box with my 4x4?
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From: Glassport, PA, USA
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Track rat)
The above advice about turning less to get more grip is very accurate. I lowered my lap times around beaverun by turning less. My exit speed were all improved and the car even had less front tire wear and more rear tire wear. Helped out alot in turn 7 was coming out at i think 80mph plus and carrying alot more speed down the back straight than my brakes could take.
On a side note i have notoice in some sweepers in autocrosses that when i turn the wheel more(seemingly past the slip angle) that there is sometimes more grip?
On a side note i have notoice in some sweepers in autocrosses that when i turn the wheel more(seemingly past the slip angle) that there is sometimes more grip?
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From: HP, NC, USA
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Crack Monkey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
How 'bout I squish your silly little wrong-wheel-drive V-TEK box with my 4x4?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Better bring BIGFOOT. I got a real nice rollcage in mine
How 'bout I squish your silly little wrong-wheel-drive V-TEK box with my 4x4?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Better bring BIGFOOT. I got a real nice rollcage in mine
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From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Track rat)
I'll go a step further!
Not only are the wrong wheels driven - the motor is at the wrong end!
Scott, who victimized himself by watching the Spec Miata race this weekend...and by driving around all by himself for the most part of his race...."It all started a long time ago...back in 98' when I bought the Type-R....."...You know the rest.
Not only are the wrong wheels driven - the motor is at the wrong end!
Scott, who victimized himself by watching the Spec Miata race this weekend...and by driving around all by himself for the most part of his race...."It all started a long time ago...back in 98' when I bought the Type-R....."...You know the rest.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: Easy Understeer Question (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Scott, who victimized himself by watching the Spec Miata race this weekend...and by driving around all by himself for the most part of his race...."It all started a long time ago...back in 98' when I bought the Type-R....."...You know the rest.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think the best way to solve this little issue is to just spend more money on the Type R.
See how simple that is?
BTW - If you want to REALLY learn how to coax a car through a corner go to CMP on a hot day with old tires. Its a valuable learning tool, the car behaves just like it would at the end of a crazy race where you've used up the front tires and the starter just refuses to throw the damned checkered.
Scott, who killed his fronts due to making up for bad qualifying at CMP a couple of months ago and was jabbing the brake with his left foot all the way through 11, 12 and 14 just to hold on to 2nd place.
I think the best way to solve this little issue is to just spend more money on the Type R.
See how simple that is?
BTW - If you want to REALLY learn how to coax a car through a corner go to CMP on a hot day with old tires. Its a valuable learning tool, the car behaves just like it would at the end of a crazy race where you've used up the front tires and the starter just refuses to throw the damned checkered.
Scott, who killed his fronts due to making up for bad qualifying at CMP a couple of months ago and was jabbing the brake with his left foot all the way through 11, 12 and 14 just to hold on to 2nd place.
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want to REALLY learn how to coax a car through a corner go to CMP on a hot day with old tires. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Its even more fun with blistered and chunked falkens....
Its even more fun with blistered and chunked falkens....
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From: South Carolina
Re: Easy Understeer Question (Catch 22)
[QUOTE=Catch 22]
BTW - If you want to REALLY learn how to coax a car through a corner go to CMP on a hot day with old tires. QUOTE]
it works on a green track on a warm day with old tires too. blah..
Jon (who also held on to 2nd place)
http://www.seat-time.com
BTW - If you want to REALLY learn how to coax a car through a corner go to CMP on a hot day with old tires. QUOTE]
it works on a green track on a warm day with old tires too. blah..
Jon (who also held on to 2nd place)
http://www.seat-time.com