People on here are always talking about how they did X to their suspension and how they liked the results and they feel the car is faster now. We never hear about what people have tried and didn't like. For example has anyone in the history of Honda-tech said I think I made my car too stiff for the race track, and now I want softer springs? ...or tried a thick sway bar to find it made the car handle worse? I would love to hear what people have tried that did NOT work for the better.

 

i took off my front swaybar this week and i am still undecided about the outcome, the front definately leans more(8k springs) but it seems to have more ultimate grip with less understeer... also when i go over a pothole with just one side of the car the chassis does not shake as much, as the front is truely independent now.

car oversteers alittle more but nothing to be excited about or scared of, just feels it has more traction for acceleration and cornering in the front. i thought removing the front bar would have an incredible effect on the balance of the car but hasnt really. car is 8k/8k 24mm front bar i took off, 22mm rear bar is still on.

8k front springs are too soft now though. 10 will be better but i think if i do leave the bar off ill end up with 12 front/14 rear.

also, swapping front uca left to right did make the car(92 hatch) feel more stable, netted 3.5degrees positive caster on each side.

hope this helped alittle, not really "didnt work though" what didnt work was 8k front/12rear on a street driven car, let off on a higheway sweeper to slow down for traffic and you better be paying attention.

 

unhooked rear bar sucks..

 

Adjustable KYB's with 600f/800r on a 2000 lbs EG - DID NOT WORK

The KYB's were unable to substain dampering under high speed cornering. So basically in high speed corners my suspension was just springs. Lateral car control out of the exits reduced exit speed.

 

I tried a 26mm rear bar on my hatchback (500F, 400R, w/ 22mm front bar) and didn't car for it as the car would rotate far too easily, imo. I'll probably bump up the rear spring rate to around 550-600 now that I've gone back to a 22mm rear bar.

 

I went up from 10k front 14k rear (on Tein RA's) to 14k front and 20k rear (rear shocks were revalved for the higher spring rates) on a 2100 lbs EG hatch and the handling was much twitchier and less predictable. For the metrically-challenged, multiply the kg/mm value by 56 to roughly convert to lbs/in. I also seemed to pick up a lot more inside front tire wheel spin coming out of tight corners. I run no swaybars on the car (it's a CX hatch, which came with no bars and I haven't bothered adding any). I'm going to try 12k front and 16k rear and possibly a rear ITR swaybar and see how that works. My lap times didn't necessarily suffer due to the higher spring rates, but the car sure was a handful to drive at the limit.

The car was really quite good with the old 10k front 14k rear set-up, but I figured since I now trailer the car I might as well go even stiffer on the spring rates.

 

On my out-of-the-box Zeal Function B6s (10KF/7KR) I did NOT like the shocks set to anything stiffer than 4F/5R as I was bouncing all over the place. This was at BeaveRun, a fairly smooth track IMO. 3F/4R felt much more stable, and is probably as stiff as I'd go on something bumpier, like Summit.

 

Yeah it's pretty common to see cars with too high of spring rates and too stiff of swaybars. Inside tire lifts off = too stiff of a swaybar. Look at the direction the wheels are turned compared to the other cars, that can tell you if the car is oversteering/understeering (well only one car goes at a time for autoX, so nevermind). See a car that just skips across the road losing traction, that means the spring rates are too high for the conditions. If the car dives too much, that means the rear springs/struts are too stiff. Lots of people set their adjustable struts to full for autoX. That's kind of funny.

 

my energy suspension poly bushing kit doesn't seem to be working well with the rest of my car. i *think* it's too stiff over a bumpy surface. beaverun's giant lot where we autox has a few sections which are a little bumpy, more specifically full of small moguls (?).

while driving over these sections, the car has a hard time doing ANYTHING effectively. with 100 hp and pushing about 5000 rpm in second gear i lose traction. i either brake completely loose into wheelspin or the tach just bounces up and down. locking up the brakes seems to happen at the drop of the hat, i'm guessing because the wheel can't travel as much as it needs to and gets unloaded. right? as far turning goes ... lets just say it's a bit unpredictable .

this really only happens in the bumpy sections of the lot. on the smooth sections, i'm very happy with the way the car behaves. (ots yellows, gc with 400f / 500r)

i want these bushings OFF of the car, but new ones from honda or mugen isn't in the budget so i'll just have to deal with it. and no, i don't have the rear trailing arm bushings installed.

any input on what exactly is causing this (if not the bushings) or how to remedy it would be appreciated.

oh and tein SS didn't work on so many levels i don't even want to get into it anymore. basically they were an $800 heap of garbage.

 

ES poly bushings suck a$$. mine lasted about 6 months before they had distorted into a nice oval shape and had more play then stock bushings. spent the $200+ to revert back to stock bushings and haven't looked back.

700/800 with a 24mm front bar and no rear bar doesn't work. 700/800 with no bars at all is even worse. 400/300 with just a 22mm rear bar sucked too. in fact, every time i've taken off the front bar i hated it.

55psi in the front tires sucks. forgot to bleed them down after i rotated the rears to the front. i couldn't understand why the car was oversteering at entry and pushing mid-corner, then i checked the pressures and it became abundantly clear.

low static front camber is bad. high static rear camber is bad too. 1/2" rear toe out doesn't work unless you like a car that wants to spin if you look at it cross eyed. EBC greens blow chunks.

that's all i can think of for now.

nate

 

I put some thick aftermarket sways on my Miata, then later added GC's, Konis and really stiff springs. The combo of the thick sways and stiff springs made the car just skip across a corner instead of sticking it seemed like.

I ditched the aftermarket sways for the OEM, sold them and got almost what I paid for them so all's well that ends well.

- Markus

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jwn7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">any input on what exactly is causing this (if not the bushings) or how to remedy it would be appreciated.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I bet it's the bushings. The ES poly bushings can cause suspension bind.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">700/800 with a 24mm front bar and no rear bar doesn't work.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Too much push?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">700/800 with no bars at all is even worse.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Still too much push, and more body roll?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">400/300 with just a 22mm rear bar sucked too.</TD></TR></TABLE>
and it was still too much push... I bet

did I get it right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Markus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I put some thick aftermarket sways on my Miata, then later added GC's, Konis and really stiff springs. The combo of the thick sways and stiff springs made the car just skip across a corner instead of sticking it seemed like.

I ditched the aftermarket sways for the OEM, sold them and got almost what I paid for them so all's well that ends well.

- Markus</TD></TR></TABLE>

How did you like the thick sways with the soft springs? Do you think your new set-up with the stiff springs and softer sways are better?

 

someone please tell me why "too thick of sway bars and stiff springs" don't work?

the key ingredient everyone (with the exception of Nate) is forgetting is the shocks. shocks and their valving are what make or break a set-up.

currently my OTS koni's are the achilles heel in my set-up. we'll see what happens in september when I get my koni's SPSS valved

 

On our WCHC car we tried 20kf/16kr, which got changed to 16kf/20kr, and the car handles a lot better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ES poly bushings suck a$$. mine lasted about 6 months before they had distorted into a nice oval shape and had more play then stock bushings. spent the $200+ to revert back to stock bushings and haven't looked back.

700/800 with a 24mm front bar and no rear bar doesn't work. 700/800 with no bars at all is even worse. 400/300 with just a 22mm rear bar sucked too. in fact, every time i've taken off the front bar i hated it.

55psi in the front tires sucks. forgot to bleed them down after i rotated the rears to the front. i couldn't understand why the car was oversteering at entry and pushing mid-corner, then i checked the pressures and it became abundantly clear.

low static front camber is bad. high static rear camber is bad too. 1/2" rear toe out doesn't work unless you like a car that wants to spin if you look at it cross eyed. EBC greens blow chunks.

that's all i can think of for now.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>That's some wacky stuff Nate. Are you coming to Nationals? I'm interested to see how your car works.

Would you say this car has too much static negative camber in the rear?

I know it doesn't have enough in the front but the fix for that will have to wait for next year. And it likely won't involve adding one of those icky front swaybars...

On Topic, ...all I know is that a 1.25" dia./.250" wall/10" arm rear swaybar is too much for the Civic, at least in my hands. However, it does work great to hold up the rear hatch if the struts are blown...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shaundrake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> If the car dives too much, that means the rear springs/struts are too stiff. </TD></TR></TABLE>

couldnt this be the front springs being too soft?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by euclid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

couldnt this be the front springs being too soft?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought the same thing. Front dive could be a few things, not just too stiff rear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 577HondaPrelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

How did you like the thick sways with the soft springs? Do you think your new set-up with the stiff springs and softer sways are better? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh boy....it's kinda like comparing apples to oranges. When I started messing with the suspension, the car was like 12 years old with 90k on oem springs/shocks.

I got adjustable Koni's, thicker Flyin' Miata sways and some lightweight 15" rims with Azenis. The conventional wisdom on miata.net is that the Koni's work fine with the oem springs but for whatever reason my springs had sagged and I was getting some crazy rubbing.

So, why not just throw more money at the problem right? I ordered up the GC coilovers with some higher than normal spring rates (don't hold me to it but something like 575 front/175 rear). I like the coilovers because you can set the ride height - I only dropped the car like one inch where most aftermarket spring sets are over an inch drop, which I feel negatively impacts suspension travel.

The combo of the beasty springs/thick coilovers seemed to make the car skate in bumpy turns vs stick, as if there was no compliance left. I think some famous racer said that thick sway bars were only good for converting an independent suspension to a solid axle or something like that.

End result is that I'm really happy with my setup although it might be a little stiff for some on the street. For someone with a street/daily driver Miata that occasionally autox's and does the rare track day, using the Koni's with the oem springs and stiffer sways would probably be ok, assuming they didn't have sagging issues like I did.

Sorry for writing a freakin' book...about a Meotter on a Honda board...

- Mark

 

Yeah could be the front was too soft. But if the rear is too stiff, and you stiffen up the front, you got wheels that wont stick to the road.

It's not the bushings. Bushings don't reduce wheel travel! The bushings don't stiffen up the suspension, they just reduce alignment change due to deflection. That's always a good thing even on the bumpiest of roads, except that your ride quality will suck and you could crack the chassis under extreme circumstances. Of course none of those setups worked cuz you were just throwing parts around blindly without regard to handling balance. On a bumpy surface, you need softer springs. 400 may still have been a bit high. Stiffen up the adjustable swaybars. You would have a serious compromise if there was a smooth section and a bumpy section. Camber has to be closer to zero for low traction surfaces. Tire choice is important.

Too stiff springs and bars for the conditions and the wheels just wont follow the road. I left out strut valving assuming that your struts can dampen the springs. Over a smooth surface, stiff as hell settings work better up to the point when you begin lifting off the inside wheels in the turns.

Have you ever had one of those old steerable red wagons? Those things have solid suspension. A car with too stiff of suspension handles just like that. You fly into a turn and you tip over sideways. The inside wheels lift up and the outside wheels try unsuccessfully to do all the work conering.

The only time you want to have no front swaybar is when the front springs are very very high, enough to control body roll on their own. In this case you will still have a rear adjustable swaybar to conveniently adjust the handling balance of the car w/out having to change the springs and have tons of different springs.

Swapping 20 front 16 rear to 16 front 20 rear just reversed the handling balance. It was probably pretty tight and now its very loose and you're thinking that's better. Well for autoX, loose is good.

I didn't even begin to go into struts because the car has to be set up for neutral handling balance before you even bother with that. Hopefully you have a matched strut/spring combo that can work together. You go after the struts when your handling problem is specifically at either the entrance, apex, or exit. Not when it's all three. Usually you're pretty close to reaching your goal by the time you tune the struts. (Well, some schools of thought are to have the springs set for oversteer on a FF and then stiffen the front rebound to make the car tight on corner entry)

Some of you guys aren't at the level yet where some tips and guidelines are going to help you. You need to go to the library and get some suspension racing books. Don't stick to Honda/Acura books, most of those are drag racing oriented. Try "high performance handling handbook". Buy a pyrometer. Offer me free webspace. Read this: http://www.ae92gts.com/ae92gts_susp_dyn.html


Modified by shaundrake at 3:57 AM 8/13/2004

 

Mixing tire manufacturers. Sport springs (YEARS ago). I'm sure there's more, I'll think.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not the bushings. Bushings don't reduce wheel travel! The bushings don't stiffen up the suspension, they just reduce alignment change due to deflection.</TD></TR></TABLE>

In a perfect world were all suspension points only moved about 1 axis, this would be true. The problem is some suspension points need to move in more than just 1 axis, and poly bushing by their very nature don't readily allow for this type of movement. This can lead to suspension bind, which will in fact reduce wheel travel and stiffen up the suspension. If you don't believe me take off your shocks and springs and try to move your hub up and down. It's not EZ and that's the bushing resisting the movement.