First off I just wanted to say hi folks! I have been lurking around the forums for a while and find the content and community of HT great for the most part aside from the occasional asswipes

Anyway here is the situation:
I bought a 2001 Accord EX 4 cyl 5 spd manual (yes the heavy leather pig model) a few month ago and find that I enjoy the ride but it could use more power (alot more) for passing. I commute alot between Chico and the Bay area and the roads are mostly 2 lane with plenty of mack trucks to slow you down.

The car is completely stock, with 87k highway miles on it. The engine runs great, and I recently gave it a 100k mile tuneup, brakes, and tires just to be safe (who knows what the other owner did to the thing). After reading the forums and browsing around for aftermarket parts I found that the accord performance aftermarket isnt as plentiful as other hondas (civics, preludes, etc..)

Well, I like going with the mainstream as much as the next guy but variety is the spice of life and I have heard good things about the F-Series engine especially in boost applications therefore I will skip the H22/23 swap. Besides, why waste a perfectly good engine? So here is my goal, and please offer your suggestions, thoughts, flames and bonks on the head where necessary in order for me to reach this goal

The Goal: Build the F23A4 for boost as a daily driver (ie: good gas mileage) but also be able to put a grin on my face when I floor it or need it for passing big *** scary mack trucks. I will also be doing some autocrossing and ocassionally visiting the drag strip in the near future.

The Plan:
I have read good things about having my block sleeved by Benson in the HT classifieds so I will go with that, the specifics I need help on (bore size, what pistons, rings, rods, compression ratio, etc). I am considering reducing the displacement to 2.0 liters so that it saves gas and lowering the compression ratio to accomodate for higher boost.. what do you think?

The turbo setup will be custom (money is a factor) and I would like some help with the parts list. I am unsure exactly what I need and would appreciate a checkoff list and possibly recommendations for specific parts. I would like to find a turbo that builds boost around 3500 rpm so that I dont eat up too much gas when cruising along the freeway. That way I can downshift into 3rd for passing and be in prime boost range.

As far as suspension goes I will be upgrading it to Comptech anti-sway bars, and will be going with a full coil-over system (Steve from omnipower informed me that he should have coils for my accord in 45 days or so

Well that about sums it up, I look forward to your suggestions and thoughts.

Bobby K.

 

first of all, what's your budget?

sounds like you want something that i wanted out of my accord.

 

My car's in the shop getting turbo'ed this week, my custom setup cost me 1500 for turbo, piping and install, 200 for intercooler, 250 for GReddy emanage, and then around 150 bucks for the little gauges and doo dads to help me monitor my car

 

honestly, you have a very strong engine in your f23, you really shouldnt need to sleeve it. you could run about 8 lbs of boost safely as a daily driver...im not too sure about what kinda gas mileage you would get though

 

Budget is around 4k, would be nice if I didnt have to spend that much considering I still need to pay off the bugger

Accordselux: could you show me your parts list? That seems cheap as hell compared to the turbo kits Ive seen that run around 3k.

propwdialogue: The reason I would like to get the engine sleeved is because I want to lower the displacement to 2.0 instead of 2.3, and then drive with low boost daily with the option of stepping up to high boost (however high I can go) for drag, autocross, and or passing scary mack trucks

Thanks for your comments!

Bobby K.

 

i got off around 230-250 miles for 15-16gallon for my sohc f23a4 with 7psi

 

Part list-top of my head

part next to * is something i would go for but not exactly required

Hardware:

turbo
*external wastegate
manifold
exhasut gasket
downpipe(flex pipe build in)
*test pipe or high flow cat
*o2 sensor eliminator(if you are not running hondata to get rid of the cel)
intercooler piping(beam roll edge)
Silicone coupler(best with T drive but worm drive is just fine)
BOV
intercooler(make sure you get one with proper fitment and psi level, big fmic will only decrease the performance on low boost situation due to pressure lost)
Oil line(supple, return, SS perferred)
Oil pan tap(no jb weld please, mount it as high as you can)
*header wrap
*silver shrink heat wrap
all vaccum hoses and t fitting
walbro 255lph fuel pump( comes with new filter)
fuel pressure regulator
*FPR gauge
*bigger rating injector or extra injector
Boost gauge
A/F gauge(not too useful but better than nothing)
*EGT gauge(very nice to have, considering you can detect you are running too hot before blowing up stuff due to running lean, etc)
Oil pressure T fitting(brass T are ghetto, just spend a little more for some machined piece)
cooler spark plug
filter'ed intake for compressor(no mesh or no filter turbo on daily driver please)
*oil pressure gauge(again, playing safe here)

tunning is pretty much up to you, aem, hondata, apexi vafc hack, FMU, emanage, etc
put in on dyno tune since you already spend so much on it already, no point to get all the high end hardware and run half ***'ed due to poor tunning.

 

$4000? ok, i'll set you up straight. thanks me later.

the easy way:

drag gen4 kit from http://www.importparts.com (call them) : $2700
oil return kit from https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=885330 : $45
plx widebanf a/f gauge from https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=809939 : $320
boost gauge from http://search.ebay.com/boost-g...omZR8: $50
oil pressure gauge from http://search.ebay.com/oil-pre...earch : $40
manual boost controller from http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...42604 : $15 or make it yourself from parts from home depot
walbro 255lph intank fuel pump from https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=930878 : $79

that's the bare minimum stuff you SHOULD have. the total comes out to be : $3249

but that's not all. you'll need FUEL MANAGEMENT. this is the most crucial part (unless you like blown engines). the plx wideband will greatly help you tune the car. but you'll need some device to control the timing and fuel. hondata is not an option for 2001 accords (iacv incompatibility) unless you want to fabricate a custom adapter plate and replace your iacv with obd1 iacv. i'd suggest aem ems. you'll be able to datalog a/f from plx, change ignition timing, make necessary fuel adjustments, and much much more. i got my ems for $835 on ebay. look around this forum, there are many used units going around $900.

should you go with ems, you'll need bigger injectors (unless you love fmu, which i don't). try 450cc from 91-99 eclipse gst or gsx manual transmission models. you can find those for $50 then have them cleaned/balanced for chump change. or you can shell out $275ish and get RC 440cc or 550cc.

so here's the total damage: $3249 + ~$900 (ems) + $275 (injectors) = $4424.

you can opt to sell the check valve, fmu and inline pump you get with the drag kit. probably around $70 or so (if you can find the right buyers).

and of course, you'd have to install the turbo (i wouldn't trust shops to do it) to save money.

if you learn how to tune, you'll save bucket load of money, but there are others with built basemaps for ems. you'd have to tweak it for your application. so you can learn about tuning and save money at the same time.

i'm boosting 10psi daily and i manage 320-350miles per fill up (93 octane all the time). now, that's with sensible (not pussywhipped) driving.

also, i wouldn't waste money sleeving it to 2.0 liter. accords are heavy, we need all the torque we can get. i suggest investing in pistons/rods/headstuds, then boosting around 14 psi daily with good tuning.

and yes, turbo install's pretty simple and straight forward. i mean, if i can do it then so can you! please check the link in my signature if you don't believe me.

here's my latest diy i did on my car: plx wideband (so totally worth it).
http://www.honduh.com/showthre...ber=1

 

Here's my parts list right now

1) Garrett t3/t4 turbo w/ upgraded ball bearings & internal wastegate- 550
2)Johnnyracecar 6" intercooler- 200
3) 1st Gen DSM BOV- 55
4) Autometer Boost Gauge- 40
5) GReddy e-manage with all necessary parts- 250 (!!!)
6) Oil lines- 100
7) Piping- 250
8) Manifold-300
9) Walbro 255lph fuel pump- 89
10) 550cc injectors- 50

On the way-
Gauge pod
Oil press. gauge
Auto tranny cooler
Manual boost controller
Tuning on Dyno (aww **** thatll cost a shitload)

All prices yet to be determined

Total so far- $1884

I'm looking at 6psi for under 2 grand All parts are new.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by accordselux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

1) Garrett t3/t4 turbo w/ upgraded ball bearings & internal wastegate- 550

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Where'd you get that turbo from?

Oh, BTW - I'm planning on boosting my F23A1 too, just started my entire project... did my battery relocation the other day and I just ordered my Tein SS's (starting from the ground up). I plan on running 6lbs daily (in theory), t3/t40b, SFP manifold + tial 38mm, my only problem thus far is I can't decide on fuel management... I've got an automatic, and apparently AEM EMS can't be run on autos, only manuals. I don't want to swap to OBDII and I'd rather not be stuck w/ a FMU or VAFC hack, so I'm in quite the dilemma. If anyone has any suggestions, by all means, lay it on me, I've considered swapping to a manual then EMS, but frankly that'd be rather extreme on the wallet + I like the idea of a boosted auto (Level 10 upgrade + torque converter). After the coilovers, I think I'm gonna work on the brakes and the rest of the suspension, ie. rear sway + front strut bar. I can't decide on running a MSD ignition b/c of the performance of Honda's stock ignition. I am also torn about my block, I know building the bottom would be ideal, but frankly I know the F sleeves can hold 10psi daily, maybe just a block guard and be done w/ that... anyway, if anyone has suggestions on the fuel management, please enlighten me... I hope I don't jack your thread, but we're pretty much in the same situation. - John

 

Not at all! Jack away, this is a community and their suggestions will help everyone in the long run (assuming members use the search feature ).

Also, I was wondering about the setup using a manual boost controller vs electronic one. Am I right in assuming that a MBC can not change boost levels while driving? If so then what electronic boost controller do you suggest?

Also, thanks for all the suggestions! They are a great help!

 

I've been boostin now for a few weeks and love it. But learn from mistakes of others, myself included. Read around, but don't get confused by folks and posts which for the most part are not applicable for your motor. Some comments are similar, but may/are different for your application There are alot of boosted hondas around, but not many boosted f23's. Here's my take on what u should do, it is my opinion only, with my experience:

1) custom turbo kit: Why waste more money trying to sell parts u don't need or want. Basic parts u will need are:
Turbo - choices are endless, but try to match the right size turbo for the f23's displacement and your driving style. I.e, you don't want a turbo too small that it practally spools at idle or reaches full boost at ~2k RPM. Even if it doesn't die off at higher revs, your gas milage will go to ****. Work with all the information possible about selecting the right turbo, books "Maximum Boost" is a good one, shops, boards, people's experience, Turbo manufacturers info etc..., but your gutt will/should be the final decision.
Manifold - I only have experience with the SFP manifold which is extremely nice. My only gripe is wastegate placement, which if u get one, u should have one made that places the wastegate forward to give u space to run a dump tube back into the exhaust.
Intercooler- I've got the DRAG/Spearco one, and it is sufficient for my power goals. However, u should get one which supports your hp goals, but don't get one which is so big that it blocks all direct airflow to your radiator.
Wastegate- Tial 38mm should be the only one u consider. I'd go with a .5 bar one so that u can run off of the spring and still get a good amount of boost, mine gets me 6psi.
downpipe - you might be able to get a 3" one in there, but it will be tight. if ur shooting for +300whp then atleast get a 2.5" flared to 3" dp made.
charge pipes - Really doesn't matter, just get some which work for your application, either pre-made one's, which will need some modification since there aren't one's which work without modification for your car, or custom one's.
fuel - Since u have big hp goals in mind +300whp since u want to drag race with it, I wouldn't waste money & time with DSM 450's, and just go with some 6XX or 7XX lb injectors. RC is what I use, but sure other venders are just as good, Lucas, Precision, etc.... Yeah, I'm sure the 450's have been proven to support 300whp before but u don't want to run ur injectors past 80%, especially if u daily drive at that power level. You will/SHOULD also invest in a 255hp fuel pump. Walboro works for me and isn't too expensive ~$70
blow off valve - Only have experience with Greddy, but a blow off valve is a must for daily driving. Not too important for track cars only though.
engine mangement - Spend the money and do it right the first time. Go with a standalone system. I wasted money going with the AFC hack, which does work well, but limits the f23 with the amount of boost you can run since on the f23 you CANNOTretard the timing at the distributor. I'm going with the AEM EMS soon which is the **** in my opinion since u get a **** load of features at a reasonable price. Plus, if u get the new one's which have the wideband built in, u can run closed loop and possible make tweaks to ur tune yourself. Also, spending money converting ur car to OBD1 to buy Hondata is a joke. The money u spend converting & then buying Hondata will equal if not surpass the price of the EMS.
oil lines - get quality one's, like fast-turbo.com
air filter - love ur turbo & motor, protect it with a filter and not the mesh screen, especially for daily driving.
guages - Boost gauage is the only one u really need. don't waste money here that can be used elsewhere
misc- Parts which will help ur engine out in the long run, catch can, etc...

TUNING is critical and should be done by a capable person, either professional, friend, or yourself. Why waste 3 grand to blow ur motor because u didn't tune it correctly!

2)Exhaust: A compromise will need to be made here. You can't have it both ways. A exhaust that will not restrict flow, and be as quite as stock. It just will not happen, middle ground is what u need. Little to no restriction, and a sound you can live with. Choice of products are endless here, but do yourself a favor and go with a 3" exhaust from the cat back. Yes, keep the cat and love the planet.

2.1) Clutch: U will need one, but the choice of which type is up to ur willingless to have a stiffer clutch to handle more power which will be a bitch on the street, or one which is somewhat managable but will not be able to hold too much power.

3)engine build: Doesn't have to be done right away, but if u plan for big reliable power +250whp, it is a must. My opinion is go with a engine builder ur comfortable with and work with them on selecting the right parts for ur goals, rods, pistons, etc... But the f23 has a iron block, so sleeving is not necessary unless ur's going for some world record or something +600whp The stock pistons and rods in the f23 are strong from what I'm told, it's just the piston rings which give out first.

4)Money: Things in this world are not cheap. Don't look for cheap solutions as u will just end up spending more money in the long run. Money for the cheap solution, and then money for the correct long term solution. It's easy to get caught up with posts, and people saying things like, complete turbo kit for $1000, turbo kit for $500, etc.... You don't have to always get raped money wise for good parts. The internet will yield u good deals. Especially here on HT.

5)Install: It is always easy to get caught up with doing it yourself. If u feel confident u can, then do it, if not, go to a repituble shop and have it done. It's money well spent.

6)Don't buy **** until u have the money to do everything at once. My opinion, it's hard looking at a pile of parts, I did it for about a year. It will make u rush and make mistakes trying to finally get it done. Save ur money in a bank, and don't touch it until your ready to buy everything. Yeah, good deals will come up, but the price of stuff in the long run will either go down, or stay the same.

7) Have reasonable goals. Yeah, u want a daily driver, autox car, and drag car, but a compromise will have to be made. Power isn't a big factor in autox but suspension setup is. Drag, power is a bigger factor, however u can have the best of both worlds, but it is probably hard to be competive in both without changing the setup between both, which will cost more money if u choose to do so. Daily driving gas milage is not an issue if u can stay out of boosting multiple times a day


hope this helps, and sorry for the long post, and if I missed anything, just let me know

 

some great info here...

but to sleeve to lower displacement to 2.0 from 2.3?? that's just silly - you want to lower your compression ratio not displacement.

and for $4k you're never going to be able to turbo, get GOOD fuel management, AND sleeve your block - if you sleeve you should buy good pistons/rods at the same time.... I say double your $4k and you'll have a CRAZY setup. otherwise keep the motor stock and boost away.

DO A COMPRESSION TEST FIRST to ensure your motor is in good enough shape for boosting before you go spending all this money.

 

So what about for me Jmal? I know I NEED EMS, but it only runs on manuals.. should I go pester the people at AEM to see if they can tell me how to run it on a auto? I really don't wanna waste my time and money on VAFC hack or a FMU, it just doesn't seem logical...

2. oh and also, instead of sleeving, would a blockguard be acceptable for 10psi max? thanks

 

A local guy that does custom turbo setups has a friend that modifies turbochargers-

I got a brand new Garrett, with ball bearings upgraded from 8mm to 11 mm for more durability, and the inside of the housings polished for better airflow.

All for 550 bucks---if you're interested i'll ask him if he does work outside of the shop!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jbiggsSE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So what about for me Jmal? I know I NEED EMS, but it only runs on manuals.. should I go pester the people at AEM to see if they can tell me how to run it on a auto? I really don't wanna waste my time and money on VAFC hack or a FMU, it just doesn't seem logical...

2. oh and also, instead of sleeving, would a blockguard be acceptable for 10psi max? thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

i boost 10 psi on stock block. had it for a year and 3-4 months and i just did my compression test the other day. all 4 cyl came out to be 225psi. no need for blockguard for 10 psi. just have good management. as for you, if you don't want fmu or afc hack, you'd have to go with hondata. do the obd1 swap with obd1 iacv adapter plate, obd1 iacv, then put in hondata.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jmal1919 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">fuel - Since u have big hp goals in mind +300whp since u want to drag race with it, I wouldn't waste money & time with DSM 450's, and just go with some 6XX or 7XX lb injectors. RC is what I use, but sure other venders are just as good, Lucas, Precision, etc.... Yeah, I'm sure the 450's have been proven to support 300whp before but u don't want to run ur injectors past 80%, especially if u daily drive at that power level. You will/SHOULD also invest in a 255hp fuel pump. Walboro works for me and isn't too expensive ~$70</TD></TR></TABLE>

6xx cc? that's overkill (unless you want to replace your pistons/rods). if you don't want the dsm 450cc's, try the rc 550s. dsm 450cc's will support 275hp at 80% duty cycle. here's the formula: (lbs/hr of injectors*number of injectors*duty cycle percentage)/BSFC/100. (cc * 10.5) = lbs per hour

with 550's you'll support 308hp at .60 BSFC. so it's all up to your power goals. but i wouldn't suggest making 270+ hp on stock block. i guess it could be done, but i'd feel real uneasy about pushing it to its limits like that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jbiggsSE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So what about for me Jmal? I know I NEED EMS, but it only runs on manuals.. should I go pester the people at AEM to see if they can tell me how to run it on a auto? I really don't wanna waste my time and money on VAFC hack or a FMU, it just doesn't seem logical...

2. oh and also, instead of sleeving, would a blockguard be acceptable for 10psi max? thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess hondata or some other form of management would work for u then. But i'd think about it hard before u do it. Who knows, u might end up converting to manual anyway

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ash.zero &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i boost 10 psi on stock block. had it for a year and 3-4 months and i just did my compression test the other day. all 4 cyl came out to be 225psi. no need for blockguard for 10 psi. just have good management. as for you, if you don't want fmu or afc hack, you'd have to go with hondata. do the obd1 swap with obd1 iacv adapter plate, obd1 iacv, then put in hondata.

6xx cc? that's overkill (unless you want to replace your pistons/rods). if you don't want the dsm 450cc's, try the rc 550s. dsm 450cc's will support 275hp at 80% duty cycle. here's the formula: (lbs/hr of injectors*number of injectors*duty cycle percentage)/BSFC/100. (cc * 10.5) = lbs per hour

with 550's you'll support 308hp at .60 BSFC. so it's all up to your power goals. but i wouldn't suggest making 270+ hp on stock block. i guess it could be done, but i'd feel real uneasy about pushing it to its limits like that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The 6xx suggesting was assuming that he wanted to go +300whp which would possibly place the 550s above 80% depending on other factors like u mentioned in the formula, and the fact that that formula, probably the same one on RC's website, is of crank power levels and not wheel . Also, that was assuming that he was going to go with a built setup to support it. Somehow I think that he, if he does, will just run on stock internals.

I also hate how everyone, myself included , always seems to place an emphisis on psi instead of power. I mean, if u hit 250whp on 10psi on a stock block, who's to say that it will last long, versus 210whp at 10psi which is totally different. Also, reliability has so many other factors involved, the argument could be considered mute. I mean, person A has 280whp at Xpsi running daily, but drivin hard daily versus the same power level, driven normally by person B. Which would last longer. Who knows

 

try looking up uberdata
thats what i was going to use..i heard some good results from it
and go for the custom turbo kit
drag turbo kit blows

 

uberdata? that's only for obd1 my man.

also, why does drag kit blow? just curious.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jmal1919 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I also hate how everyone, myself included , always seems to place an emphisis on psi instead of power. I mean, if u hit 250whp on 10psi on a stock block, who's to say that it will last long, versus 210whp at 10psi which is totally different. Also, reliability has so many other factors involved, the argument could be considered mute. I mean, person A has 280whp at Xpsi running daily, but drivin hard daily versus the same power level, driven normally by person B. Which would last longer. Who knows </TD></TR></TABLE>

by the way, that is a good fukn point. i guess we just get accustomed to using psi as a standard measure of power in turbo apps. which is true to certain extent (psi=compressed air=higher hp), but you do need to account for added hp over stock as well. there could be some weird funk restriction on ppl's turbo setup for all we know.

 

Hmmm, so if I don't go OBDI, and I don't go manual, my only options are AFC hack or FMU, correct? :\

 

heres my list of what i have:

-Drag4 turbo kit, got it for $2,000 shipped, was a week old when i bought it :D
-dsm 450's, free for helping another out with tuning his EMS
-adj. fpr $100 from ebay
-walbro 255HP intank fuel pump ithink $85 from ebay
-AEM EMS w/ AEM UGEO $1,200 through ebay
-street tuning was free, i did it
-stock gutted cat free
-was a greddy cat back, but now it has a custom dual conversion with magnaflow mufflers...greddy was $200....then mufflers were i think $130 and fabrication was like a tad over a $100, btw....my greddy rusted out, thats the reason for the change.

it's been priceless with what cars i have been running with and stomping on :D
i'm getting an average of 330-300 miles to a full tank, mix driving city/highway, it can be better, but my foot gots issues, it also can be a whole lot worst if racing through the whole tank. car is alot more responsive now, theres no need to give alot of gas to get moving, i can drive comfortable without being slow with around 10-15% throttle, and thats just moving from a standstill, once up to speed i use less then that. all highway driving, going
85-100mph i got almost 370ish miles to the tank. driving w/ A/C on is now is not a issue, it was sad b4, i never used the a/c cuz it felt soo weak, not ne more! no need to down shift to pass unless i want to pass really quick.

btw....i get 57% injector duty cycle at 6,500rpms @10psi with a 11.5:1 air:fuel ratio.....this is the doing of the adj. fpr, thats why its soo good to have one, not to mention a high pressure fuel pump.

no need to sleeve unless ur planning on pushing more then 300whp, i plan on doing that on the stock block, u probably still dont have to sleeve for that much, just rods & pistons and some head studs should be enough....a block guard of some sort would be good to have too. sleeves r for high boost levels, do u plan on running crazy boost?

 

btw.......my stock clutch went through starting at 24,000 miles when i got it......hell on alot hard driving, then it went through 16 bottles on a 75 shot, then it went through 7psi for almost 10,000 miles.....i changed my clutch out when i replaced my engine, that was at 94,000 miles, i never felt it slip, n there was still good meat left when i replaced it with a Exedy. if ur curious, i fried my engine when i was on the FMU, but that was because i cranked up the boost to 9psi, and my connecting hose for the walbro fuel pump came loose, i couldn't hold more then 40psi, n thats very bad on a FMU setup. i guess i didn't tighten it down enough
it costed me a $600 replacement engine w/17,000 miles on it.....n i got that through ebay also :D

 

Sigh, so maybe should I just take the hit and swap to a manual? If I swapped, 1. I wouldnt have to worry about the auto blowing. 2. I'd be able to run EMS.

But, I still like the idea of an auto turbo, sigh, woe is me.