I've decided to give the Koni coilover route a try, but since my car is a prelude, there isn't much data for me to go off to select spring rates, valving, spring length, how much should the shocks be shortened, etc. So, here are my questions:

Spring Rate(s): The car weighs 3000lbs w/ me, and a full tank of gas. I've been cited spring rates of 1000# front with 1200 # rear. Ist that too high for a car that still sees street time? Would a 1000 # front with an 800# rear be better for a car that sees street duty? What are some of the higher end spring rates that people are, or have, run? Also, how many of you are running helper/tender springs, and how many of you are just running a solitary linear spring?

Valving: The SPSS3 valving is the reccomended valving for the spring rate ranges listed above. Are there people here using the SPSS3 valving that could comment on their satifsfaction?

Spring Length: In the parts selection, I can choose between a 7" linear spring and an 8 inch linear spring. Taking into mind how stiff the srpings will be, which length should I use to allow for an adjustability of ride height , without compromising the amount of shock travel? I've also been told that running a spring that is too short, and too stiff will limit my droop - have others found this to be true? What is the concensus on spring lenght?

Shock shortening: How much should the shocks be shortened? 1 inch? 2 inch? And why is it that the rear shocks do not need to be shortened along with the fronts?

Vendors: Lastly, I know that there have been people on this forum that have gone through Koni direct (Lee Grimes), or they've used the Truechoice Suspension Solutions; my question is: how do the components packages differ? Are there, or have there ever been, any problems with installation and fitment, or are both packages true bolt-in jobs?


I realize that I'm asking for a lot of info.
Thank you for your replies.

 

hey hubert!

what model konis are you going with?
i've been thinking about going this route also.
atho koni may not be "jdm", all the fast drivers in scca and beyond are running koni.

 

Paul: I'm going to go with koni sports that will be revalved and shortened.

(Although, deep deep down, I want the 3012 D/A babies sitting under my shock towers, but I don't need them. Plus, from what I've read, the Sports can be rebuilt and re-tapped to be D/A.)

 

I know I'm driving an Integra, but for what it's worth, my current 600F/1000R spring rates would be intolerable on the street. It rides seriously hard - most low speed "bumps" don't even compress the spring.

You don't shorten the rears because due to the stiff rates, they just don't move as much. With that high a rate your springs are probably compressed not at all at a standstill. Plus, I think there's typically a little more travel in the back.

You're only gonna have as much spring-loaded droop as you've got spring compression at a standstill. If there's no compression, the moment you unload that wheel, the only thing bringing it down toeards the ground is gravity.

Does any of that make sense? kind of hard to explain.

The SPSS3 valving kicks ***.

I didn't shorten my fronts - I went the Ground Control upper mount route instead. So far it's proven affective. Watch out for your hood though - make sure the now-much-taller shock shaft doesn't hit your hood. I had to bang in the webbing on my passenger side to get it to fit.

 

For my street '94 Prelude I'm running 425f/340r Eibachs/Ground Controls with off the shelf koni yellows, and it's plenty stiff for the street. I would not want to go any stiffer with a street car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For my street '94 Prelude I'm running 425f/340r Eibachs/Ground Controls with off the shelf koni yellows, and it's plenty stiff for the street. I would not want to go any stiffer with a street car.</TD></TR></TABLE>


cause you are WEAK!!!

i'm running 14k front and 850lb rear in a civic.....daily driven

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


cause you are WEAK!!!

i'm running 14k front and 850lb rear in a civic.....daily driven</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, but let's see how weak you are when you need to use a walker when you are 35...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know I'm driving an Integra, but for what it's worth, my current 600F/1000R spring rates would be intolerable on the street. It rides seriously hard - most low speed "bumps" don't even compress the spring.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much does your car weigh, and how much greater are you spring rates than your cornerweights?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You don't shorten the rears because due to the stiff rates, they just don't move as much. With that high a rate your springs are probably compressed not at all at a standstill. Plus, I think there's typically a little more travel in the back.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I suppose this would be swapped if I was to run softer rear springs? I 'm think of having all 4 shocks shortened just to be on the safe side. Is that reasonable?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're only gonna have as much spring-loaded droop as you've got spring compression at a standstill. If there's no compression, the moment you unload that wheel, the only thing bringing it down toeards the ground is gravity.

Does any of that make sense? kind of hard to explain.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've been talking to a few other people , and I'm starting to wrap this around my brain.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The SPSS3 valving kicks ***.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How long did the original valving last you? How sensative arethe adjustment, and do they make a significant impact?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didn't shorten my fronts - I went the Ground Control upper mount route instead. So far it's proven affective. Watch out for your hood though - make sure the now-much-taller shock shaft doesn't hit your hood. I had to bang in the webbing on my passenger side to get it to fit.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you have fitment problems b/c of the GC upper mounts, or becuase the shock? Had you shortened the shock, and not used the GC upper mounts, would you've had the same problem?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For my street '94 Prelude I'm running 425f/340r Eibachs/Ground Controls with off the shelf koni yellows, and it's plenty stiff for the street. I would not want to go any stiffer with a street car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The Tein HAs that this Koni set-up will be replacing, came with 12kg fronts (~ 672#) and 8kg ( 448#) rears - in my time of owning them, I have never felt them to be too stiff. If I do use either the 900# or 1000# fronts it'll equate to , roughly, a 40% increase in spring rate up front, and if I use either the 700# or 800# rear, it'll be roughly a 50% increase.
I concede that the new rates will be stiffer, and less forgiving, but the car does weight , on average, 400 - 600 #s more than what everyone here drives.


Modified by bb6h22a at 2:50 PM 8/5/2004

 

Hubert,
I've had the GC/Neuspeed Konis for a year now and have been really happy with them. However, some observations.
-You definately NEED to get the front shock bodies shortened at least an inch, the rears seem to be fine with my ride height but there's a lot of shock body in the rear so shortening them as well wouldn't hurt.
-I'm beginning to realize the need for double adjustable konis.
-You might get coil bind with 8" springs in the front. I think 7" all around would work.
I'm definately not them one to ask but those are my observations.
I suggest you hit up David Rierson aka DR on this board. He road races the GC/Koni set up.
Here's some movies of him roadracing. Definately worth a look.

I've given up on the PigLude and am currently going after a 1990 STS Civic Si .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RAB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hubert,
I've had the GC/Neuspeed Konis for a year now and have been really happy with them. However, some observations.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks for your reply,and some more questions...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-You definately NEED to get the front shock bodies shortened at least an inch, the rears seem to be fine with my ride height but there's a lot of shock body in the rear so shortening them as well wouldn't hurt.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So, you'd say that 1.5" in the front, and 1" in the rear would be sufficent? Or, should I goe w/ more? Do you happen to know how tall the shock bodies are?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-I'm beginning to realize the need for double adjustable konis.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Could you expand on this, please?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-You might get coil bind with 8" springs in the front. I think 7" all around would work.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I looked up the spring lengths of the springs on my HAs, and both the front and rear springs are 200 mm (~ 7.8 inches) - are you sure I should go with 7" springs? Just curious. Also, what spring rates are you running? Then again, the next set of springs will be stiffer, so they should compress less under static load than the ones I'm currently using - you could surely have a point then.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm definately not them one to ask but those are my observations.
I suggest you hit up David Rierson aka DR on this board. He road races the GC/Koni set up.
Here's some movies of him roadracing. Definately worth a look.

I've given up on the PigLude and am currently going after a 1990 STS Civic Si .</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll IM him this thread. Thanks again for sharing your input! Us prelude guys are few and far between...


Modified by bb6h22a at 4:50 PM 8/5/2004

 

Um, thats a lot of questions.

Lets see.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How much does your car weigh, and how much greater are you spring rates than your cornerweights? </TD></TR></TABLE>

About 2650 with me in it. I don't remember the crossweights but the rears are well less than 1000lbs. I want to say they 500-700lb range...but really, its been too long.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I suppose this would be swapped if I was to run softer rear springs? I 'm think of having all 4 shocks shortened just to be on the safe side. Is that reasonable?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think you need to shorten the rears, but again...prelude might be a different animal. You're probably also running (or will be) a large rear sway, further minimizing rear wheel travel even if you do soften away from 1200.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How long did the original valving last you? How sensative arethe adjustment, and do they make a significant impact?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Years. 1998 thru like 2001 where I lost a left front thanks to my tendency to straddle gators running soft springs and a very, very low car.

I have never adjusted the shocks since getting them revalved. I've driven the car like three or four weekends since getting them (this over the last year and a half, biased way towards 2003) and never found them needing much of anything.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you have fitment problems b/c of the GC upper mounts, or becuase the shock? Had you shortened the shock, and not used the GC upper mounts, would you've had the same problem? </TD></TR></TABLE>

The GC mount caused the "problem" which I solved with a hammer. They bring the top of the shock shaft (and the bump stop) upwards. Can't talk to whether or not this is something to consider on a Prelude.

Edit: wow, I screwed the quotes all up the first time.


Modified by krshultz at 10:58 AM 8/6/2004

 

I use 8" length 750f and 950r for the Texas World Speedway 2.9 course where I have beat the ITS track record. My single adjustable Konis are revalved and the fronts are shortened an inch. Unless you are racing on a very fast track I doubt you would want to go any higher.

 

What's this for? AutoX or roadracing?

I had OTS Konis + 7" 425lb/in GCs both front and rear on my old STS Prelude. I also ran the factory swaybars. The car was very neutral with this setup. There was not excessive body roll, and it was fairly comfortable for everyday street driving. I never had any problems at all with bottoming out the shocks. So I never had the Konis shortened.

Andrew

 

Hubert,
I'm at 450 in the front and 425 in the rear. Like aklucsarits said the set up is nuetral. I think I want more spring in the rear like 550 or 600 for auto-x. The reason I said I'm beginning to feel the need for double adjustables, is moving the car around so much during an auto-x run, I'm feeling the springs compress a lot more than I'd like.

Also 577Prelude tracks his car. Maybe he'll pop up here.

 

I still drive my prelude on the street. I am running 400#f 600#r rates. Without the revalve, they were intolerable on the street IMO. Once I got them revalved they were more tolerable. I wouldnt think of going higher in the rear though, especially since its still a street car. 600# is a lot on the street. I had my fronts shortened an inch and its very hard to bottom them out. The rears were not shortened and I bottom them often. The car is only lowered an inch. If I were to do it again id shorten the rears 1/2 an inch.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The GC mount caused the "problem" which I solved with a hammer. They bring the top of the shock shaft (and the bump stop) upwards. Can't talk to whether or not this is something to consider on a Prelude.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I once talked to the GC guys about the mounts. Unfortunately, they don't make em for the Prelude & have no plans to at the time.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by luder94si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unfortunately, they don't make em for the Prelude & have no plans to at the time.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is the upper mount significantly different than a EF/DA/DC/EG chassis?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Us prelude guys are few and far between...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Qualudes rule


I autocross more than I see the track (& then it's only HPDE). I run the Koni/GC combo as well - 400F, 450 R - with the stock OTS valving. I am running 8" springs all around. I run the stock front anti-sway & a ST rear anti-sway. Alot of the understeer is gone, but I'd like a little more rotation for auto-x. Thus, I have new ERS 550's sitting here, which I'll be putting in the rear this weekend. The ride isn't too rough for the street, but luckily I don't drive this car everyday.

bb6h22a - Are you still thinking of running 1200 lbs/in on the street? Personally, I think that's a little extreme (even with the revalve) You could also talk to honda318dx (Corey J.) - who runs 1200 in the rear of his 4th gen "tank" - but his car is a trailer queen now.

 

tein SS are 800f 400r
i think theyre not very stiff for the street...or at least its tolerable on the streets

i autox every other week and drive on almost the same settings daily on the streets.....

 

Tein SS for the Prelude is 8kg/mm front and 4kg/mm rear or 448 lb/in, 224 lb/in respectively. No where near the spring rates claimed. The Tein SS's do not even compare in this setup.

I can see why 600+ would be hard, but with a shock designed to take that I can't see any reason why not to run that level. Especially after coming off the Tein HA's (670 lb/in, 448 lb/in) and saying that daily driving they're fine. I'd probably try something along the lines of 600 front and the same for the rear. You really (personal opinion) don't want to go with a hugely rear stiff setup for daily driving as there's far too many times where a panic stop is the only option out, and with a heavy rear stiff setup the rear end will come around on you during this kind of manuver. But there's always trade offs when coming around to it. Have you considered just throwing on a set of Tein springs of the 10 or 12kg/mm variety on your Tein HA's? w/o a revalve they can take the 10kg/mm springs which I've considered myself as well though I'm going to "ghetto" way out currently and stiffening up the rear anti-sway bar from the ST unit to the Progress unit.

 

I have played with spring rate on my 5th gen prelude for the past 3 years. If you want to drive it on the street I would recommend keeping the rates less than 500 lbs/inch. A good set up for HPDE, auto-x, street car (IMO) would be 450 lbs/inch rear, 380 lbs/inch front, stock front sway bar & neuspeed rear sway bar (25mm). 8 inch or 7 inch springs will both work fine. Even with this set up the ride will be much much stiffer than stock, and it's a good starting point for balance.

 

could it be that the Prelude has different susp. geometry so that a given spring rate on a Prelude has a different wheel rate than the same spring rate on a Civic/Integra? This could be why people with Civic/Integra's can run a higher rate spring and it not rattle their teeth out Vs. a Prelude driver having lower rates and reporting it to be stiff???

Or could it be that I am talking sideways out my ***?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aklucsarits &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's this for? AutoX or roadracing?

I had OTS Konis + 7" 425lb/in GCs both front and rear on my old STS Prelude. I also ran the factory swaybars. The car was very neutral with this setup. There was not excessive body roll, and it was fairly comfortable for everyday street driving. I never had any problems at all with bottoming out the shocks. So I never had the Konis shortened.

Andrew </TD></TR></TABLE>

I do open track events, etc. The car is not a dedicated race car (yet). I do not auto-x at all. And I still spend some time on the street.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by luder94si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Qualudes rule


bb6h22a - Are you still thinking of running 1200 lbs/in on the street? Personally, I think that's a little extreme (even with the revalve) You could also talk to honda318dx (Corey J.) - who runs 1200 in the rear of his 4th gen "tank" - but his car is a trailer queen now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The car still sees some track time. When I spoke to Lee @ Koni , he said that with ample valving, and given the weight of my car (3000#), that 1200 would be about the limit - since then, I've revised my spring rates considerably. Currently, I'm leaning toward ~ 900 # fronts and 700# rears , or there abouts. 900# is 100% of my front cornerweight, and 700# is about 110% of the rear cornerweight.
From the people that I've talked to, most say that a street setup is usually a 1:1 ratio b/w your spring rate, and cornerweight. And that a more race biased setup is usually somewhere higher than that.
With the HAs that I have now, and their spring rates of ~ 700# front, and ~ 500# rear, I have never found the ride to be intolerable, or even harsh. I suppose it is all very subjective. That's why the notion of running rates in the 900's and even 1000's doesn't worry me from an ergonomic perspective.