The perpetually escalating cost of racing is a conundrum that people always seem to struggle to come to terms with. Failures come in the forms of Spec Miata, Honda Challenge, and many others (note: this is not from personal experience, just from the second-hand grumble I pick up, discount if you will...)

The problem is that people will always be willing to game the system with as much effort and money as they have, (sunbelt motors, etc.)... The individuals themselves, the ones with excess money and sufficient commitment, have no incentive to keep things affordable.. in fact, it's somewhat the opposite: they hope to use the money issue as an advantage by forcing into the racing through osmosis through the "rules membrane" trying to keep the money out. (gross over-generalization to make a point)

What to do?

How about spec a $10,000 race class? Part of the rules state that at the end of the race, the competitors can buy another's car for $10,000 (in the condition it was in when it crossed the finish line, no spares, etc. included). You'd have to agree to this condition ahead of time, and if someone wants to buy it, you have to sell it, or you forfeit your finish. The purchase price is always $10,000, so participants will have incentive to do as well as they can while putting as little money/effort into the car as they can get away with. Anyone who goes crazy putting too much extra money into their car will lose it because someone will want to buy it, and they can for $10k.

Ah well, just musing... lots of flaws with it, the main one being human nature and emotional attachment to cars. Just wanted to see if this sparked an interesting discussion... (or are there already things like this out there?)

 

Sounds cool. Except I have a feeling a lot of people would cut the costs in the roll cage. Like you said, lots of drawbacks. Still sounds neat.

 

i think it sounds great!

but i think i'd be really safe; no one would want to buy my car!

todd

 

Yeah but who would actually buy the cars?

Setting a budget isnt so easy, as there's very creative ways to manage your expenses (see: GRM $2000 challenge)

 

I just stick to time-trials and autocross. Not wheel-to-wheel, but tons cheaper...

 

Or there could be a tire claim, engine claim, shock claim, or wheel claim rule, etc.
Where there is a price set on certain parts of the car.

 

claimer classes are pretty common and popular in circle track racing. Its doesn't have to be the whole car either. I've seen claim rules for just motors and just carbs.

I've never heard of a claimer class in road racing though. When spec e30 was getting started there was discussion around a claim rule for motors, but it didn't survive.

Come to think of it, a motor claim rule in spec miata would really go a long way to fix that class.

 

Werd.

 

Claiming rules come and go from existence here and there from time to time.

It's not THE answer, as there cannot be One. It's in human nature to adapt. Or flee.

You're talking about what I see as one part of the reality of racing. You can see and hear about such parts of the reality, but until it's taking actual bites out of your *** it's just not going to register quite the same. I often wonder about the guy who hasn't even the barest exposure to how it really is and arrives in racing with naive ideas about rules and costs - it must really hurt as it sinks in.

Scott, some of who's best racing friends gave him their best advice: "Stop now and sell it"...I can know that they're right and still not take their advice...racing cars is a stupid sport and trying to make it a little less stupid is...well...stupid too. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

 

KARTS!

or one of the arrive-and-drive programs.

 

I wonder if maybe you are missing part of the issue (of-course "as I see it" not empiracly). Its not that road racing isn't affordable, its that anyone ever suggested or bought into the idea it is.

Seems to me, the only way to assure affordability (or cost containment) is to have a manufacturer/independent party build and maintain all the actual cars for all competitors - so if you want to race w/ parity, go to your local indoor kart track with a group of friends or become a movie star and buy an invite to the Toyota Celebrity GP at Long Beach. JMO of-course

 

It's not expensive to race. It's expensive to win.

 

Claimer rules don't cure anything. The guy with the money to build and sell (at a loss) many cars will still beat the guy who builds to the claim limit once.

The rich guy doesn't have to sink $20,000 into a $10,000 claimer, he only need to sink $10,001 (or whatever the margin is that assures him an advantage over the next guy).

As far as spec classes containing costs, they still do to a degree. As long as the rules are stable, there will be an upper bound on what you can spend. In the case of Spec Miata, it seems to be in the $25k range. Of course, that's no less expensive than ITC.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not expensive to race. It's expensive to win. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know I agree, put your car into a wall in practice or blow up your tranny on lap 4 or throw a rod during test day - that's not an expense in winning, its a basic and very possilbe expense in racing and it can happen if you are the top dog or the guy running in 23rd.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As far as spec classes containing costs, they still do to a degree. As long as the rules are stable, there will be an upper bound on what you can spend. In the case of Spec Miata, it seems to be in the $25k range. Of course, that's no less expensive than ITC.</TD></TR></TABLE>
And ironically (and more pertinently??) its is no less expensive than an ITA Miata. And the A cars go faster

 

Legends cars

Factory Five cars, etc.

There are lots of "spec" classes. The legends guys even have sealed engines.

Scott

 

Don't forget that most of what makes a car fast is development. You could take 2 cars with the same exact parts and still not be equal. Being able to buy somebodys car is not a good idea in my opinion.

 

spec racer fords have sealed engines also.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seems to me, the only way to assure affordability (or cost containment) is to have a manufacturer/independent party build and maintain all the actual cars for all competitors </TD></TR></TABLE>

sounds kinda like SRF, which seems to be a pretty popular class. Jon used to race SRF but now races a honda. Maybe he has some insight into how it works?

 

Give me a week and enough $ and I'll bet I could come up with SRF engine seals for you...

If I were managing a spec series, I'd do a variation of the claim deal. At the end of the weekend, the top five finishers would draw chips to see what part they were going to trade with five lucky entrants, drawn at random out of the rest of the field - ECU, engine, gearbox, whatever.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I've never heard of a claimer class in road racing though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

When it began in the mid-1970s, SCCA's entire Showroom Stock class system was based on a claiming system. The biggest hubub was when the Porsche 924s ran SSA and one guy who was a favorite to win the national championship claimed his main competitor's 924 at or a very short time before the Runoffs and took away the guy's chance to react fast enough to get a win. I seem to recall something about a factory sunroof that magically disappeared from one of the cars too. I think the SS claiming rule was gone by the end of the '70s.

 

That's soon to be called NASCAR. Price tag is 250k per car via the France family.

 

The way to do it is. Everyone build a spec car and then drop the keys in a hat at the track. Everyone gets someone else's car for the race. If you wreck, the owner has the option of taking either his car or your car home with him.

 

Or, we could just all suck it up, realize we got into a very expensive hobby, and "race one class below what we can afford to".

Some of you will remember that quote.

 

I've used that for years. I talked to one college-age guy who wanted to get started and, when he told me how much money he had available THAT DAY, I suggested RC cars. He wouldn't have been competitive on his budget, though...

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or, we could just all suck it up, realize we got into a very expensive hobby, and "race one class below what we can afford to".

Some of you will remember that quote.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know the quote you are talking about, but the more I think about it, the more it seems we all chose to race one class ABOVE what we can afford to.