UPDATE 08/04/04

Ok, they did a comptest. So, I asked for actual #'s, and they are trying to tell me, they just check the difference btwn cylinders, if the difference btwn cylinders was bad then they will .."put a gage on it."

I'm wondering how the hell do you check the difference btwn cylinders w/out actual #'s? Is this what is refferred to as a leakdown?

...I'm begging to see the smoke and mirrors, what do you all think?

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UPDATE 08/03/04

Ok, just got back from talking to the service manager. I'm taking the car in tommorow so they can perform a leakdown/compression test. They are also replacing the dizzy cap, wires/plugs as part of some emissions thing.


The service manager apologized to me and said "he'd make it right".. I'm still a bit skeptical.

So, in all honesty where do you all think the oil went?? could that amount of oil be lost when changing the seals??

Also what would you say are typical Compression figures for an H22a4 w/90k? I don't want the dealer to try and baffle me w/bullshit.


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UPDATE FIXED, read my post below

ok, get this.. it's fixed

Went for a ride in the car. Sarah had to stop real quick for a red light. I saw the oil light flicker real quick out of the corner of my eye..

I told her to pull over, and checked the oil level.. dry as a damn bone

We limp it to my house (about 2 blocks away) I put in 3-1/2 quarts. re checked the oil level, good to go.

Start it back up run for 10mins. Go for a drive.. whaddya know, we have vtec.


I never made the connection that the cut-out was happening right @vtec until now.. Vtec relies on oil pressure to work, but Honda should make the damn light come on sooner, not when it's dry under braking

Needless to say I'm calling the dealer ASAP, but I got a quick ? tell me if you think this is valid.

When they changed the belt, they told me there was a bit of oil leaking into the timing belt area. so they changed all the seals that isolate the timing area (ie crank pulley, camgears, tensioner etc. )When changing the seals I'm assuming you'd lose some oil correct? I think that's what happened and they forgot to fill it back up

...I really wish I would have done it myself now, because the "pros" could have cost me a motor. Right now I'm hoping the damn smoke was unburnt fuel.

Let this be a lesson to all of us.. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR OIL LEVEL if I hadn't caught this sooner we would be buying a new H22

... I'm serious after you are done reading this, go check your damned oil!

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Ok, the car is a 1997 SH. It's my girlfriends, was previously mine and just hit the 90k mark so, I took it to the dealer to change the timing belt, I didn't have the time to deal w/it, so I figured if anyone could do it right it would be Honda. I have had 0 problems w/the car in my time owning it, just regular maintenance, change the oil religiously, previously w/Mobil in the past several months Amsoil 5w-30 etc.

They agreed to change, the timing belt, water pump and approriate seals. ~$522w/tax etc.

so, take the car in wed @8am, they call me around 5, car is done. I have someone drop me off @the dealer, I pay and proceed to drive home.

I get in start the car, let it warm for a bit. everything seems fine. I drive across the street, grab some food, and proceed to drive her car home.

after about 15 mins of driving. I come to a busy intersection and make a right. I'm infront of on coming traffic so I roll on the gas. Shortly after the car crosses over to the vtec l, It falls flat on its face almost like a rev-limiter. I look out the rear view mirror to see a cloud of smoke, I'm not postivie but it's seems as if the car made a loud *pop* when it cut out... seems to be detonation, not quite sure though.

soo, I call the dealer. explain what happened. I am damn near positive they didn't time it correctly. They have me bring it back in the next morning and apologize for the inconveinance etc.

2hrs later I get a call. According to them the timing is fine. The tech says "timing spec is +/- 17 and it's @ +16degrees . So now the tech thinks it is my plugs/wires, because they are aftermarket... right


I explain to them that I had no problem of any sort until I brought the car into them. "Does that make logical sense to you, that something that was working fine previously is now malfunctioning, after they worked on it." "

The service manager basically brushes me off saying "your plugs are NOT platinum, and your wires are not Honda."

"They are NGK coppers and Bosch wires.. the bosch were nearly replacements because one of the OE's failed previously." "If i run platinums (namely bosch, If the OE plugs are platinum they ran fine) in my Lude, it doesn't run correctly..same w/my ITR and any other honda I have encountered."

soo, they tell me they are going to do an emissions replacement (or something to that effect.)under warranty. It consists of replacing, plugs wires, and the dizzy cap... I only think they are doing it because it's free, so I question them.

service manager "there is a flow chart we must follow, and these items are the first things on the list, I promise we will make it right."

soo, the car goes in again this wed because they had to order the parts in. They tell me the car is "driveable" but not to take it to the higher revs. I don't really trust that so I have been driving her everywhere, except when I'm not available.

Needless to say, I'm very skeptical. I'm not expecting this next step to correct it. The only thing that could create the issue I'm having IMO is the 1. timing or 2. the distributor.

Here is my main ?. If it was the distributor, wouldn't it affect the car @all revs.. not just after 5.5k?

Also, if anyone has any other ideas @what it could possibly be please chime in

TIA

D

Modified by DsR at 12:31 PM 8/2/2004


Modified by DsR at 4:19 PM 8/3/2004


Modified by DsR at 4:25 PM 8/3/2004


Modified by DsR at 4:32 PM 8/3/2004


Modified by DsR at 4:33 PM 8/3/2004


Modified by DsR at 11:57 AM 8/4/2004


Modified by DsR at 11:57 AM 8/4/2004

 

Sounds like a crap job, even honda can hire incompetence... I would take it to a different Honda dealer, don't waste an engine letting them go through the "flow charts". Did they replace the auto-tensioner? You should do the manual conversion, it's much more reliable. Ludes don't produce clouds of smoke from frickin' aftermarket wires, give me a break. Don't let them touch it again, and write down everything, save all paperwork, etc..

 

What a bunch of crap.

"You have an aftermarket shift **** - not Honda. That's why your car blew up."

I hate this kinda crap. It's the easy way out for too many dealerships.

It would be awful coincidential that your problem happened just after they touched it.

Good luck and keep us updated.

 

After honda did my timming belt change a while back, my car stalled out several times on the way home. Best believe i have done everything to my car ever since. Including another timming belt change cause theirs went bad in a year.

If i were you i would check everything my self and make sure everything is right. Sounds to me like they checked the timming with a timming light and not check the cam and crank timming position, which is something that has to be done right when reinstalling the belt. Sounds like your tech guy was off a few teeth and said to hell with it and left it like that.

 

your exhaust cam timing is wrong...it's connected to the distributor so the ignition timing is also off. THey didn't line up the belt properly.

 

what joel said...

sounds like your timing is off.

 

ok, get this.. it's fixed

Went for a ride in the car. Sarah had to stop real quick for a red light. I saw the oil light flicker real quick out of the corner of my eye..

I told her to pull over, and checked the oil level.. dry as a damn bone

We limp it to my house (about 2 blocks away) I put in 3-1/2 quarts. re checked the oil level, good to go.

Start it back up run for 10mins. Go for a drive.. whaddya know, we have vtec.


I never made the connection that the cut-out was happening right @vtec until now.. Vtec relies on oil pressure to work, but Honda should make the damn light come on sooner, not when it's dry under braking

Needless to say I'm calling the dealer ASAP, but I got a quick ? tell me if you think this is valid.

When they changed the belt, they told me there was a bit of oil leaking into the timing belt area. so they changed all the seals that isolate the timing area (ie crank pulley, camgears, tensioner etc. )When changing the seals I'm assuming you'd lose some oil correct? I think that's what happened and they forgot to fill it back up

...I really wish I would have done it myself now, because the "pros" could have cost me a motor. Right now I'm hoping the damn smoke was unburnt fuel.

Let this be a lesson to all of us.. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR OIL LEVEL if I hadn't caught this sooner we would be buying a new H22

... I'm serious after you are done reading this, go check your damned oil!

 

gotta love when dealers do that.

change your oil, then take it for a test spin behind the dealership only to ****** seize the thing because they forgot to put the oil back in.

 

Damn, I would go raise holy hell on the service manager there. Tell him exactly what you found, and find out why someone ***FORGOT*** to put oil back in your car. That is one of the most f'd up dealer stories I've heard in a long time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94vtecmn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Damn, I would go raise holy hell on the service manager there. Tell him exactly what you found, and find out why someone ***FORGOT*** to put oil back in your car. That is one of the most f'd up dealer stories I've heard in a long time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

what's worse is that they kept trying to lecture me about their "flow chart." The flow chart doesn't include checking the oil level it appears.

Also the tech drove the car, and obivously didn't recognize it as the vtec solenoid...

..The sevice manager is calling me back.

 

Keep us informed, I want to hear what he has to say......

 

You should not have oil up to the front and rear main seals. Even with them motor off. I don't think I've ever come across a car that had the seals leak when I took them out. They leak while the car is running.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by yellow_jacket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You should not have oil up to the front and rear main seals. Even with them motor off. I don't think I've ever come across a car that had the seals leak when I took them out. They leak while the car is running.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that's what I was curious about.. Do you think there is any possible way that oil could have been lost in the process??

Strange thing is I checked the oil 2 days before we took it in, and vtec was engaging.. car was running fine

 

uh they still told you your timing was off...WTF is up with that part? that had nothig to do with the oil problem

 

I also wonder if they replaced your auto tensioner. For that price I would hope so, but you need to check.
They are supposed to replace it too, and I have seen and heard of the puff of smoke and vtec falling on its face because the tensioner slips for a second, and the car starts running like ***.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">uh they still told you your timing was off...WTF is up with that part? that had nothig to do with the oil problem</TD></TR></TABLE>

They told me timing was fine after I brought it back in. I don't see why they would lie, because if they could just fix it they could be rid of me

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lildrgn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I also wonder if they replaced your auto tensioner. For that price I would hope so, but you need to check.
They are supposed to replace it too, and I have seen and heard of the puff of smoke and vtec falling on its face because the tensioner slips for a second, and the car starts running like ***.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think they did.. I was planning on doing the manual convo. But I got too damn busy.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DsR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


I don't think they did.. I was planning on doing the manual convo. But I got too damn busy. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Ill look in the book, but I am pretty sure that it says
"REPLACE" next to the auto tensioner when you do your timing belt.
Once they lose their tension they start to fail much faster.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lildrgn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Ill look in the book, but I am pretty sure that it says
"REPLACE" next to the auto tensioner when you do your timing belt.
Once they lose their tension they start to fail much faster.</TD></TR></TABLE>

*crosses fingers*

Ill check the receipt.. it had a parts list of everything they replaced.

 

Ok, just got back from talking to the service manager. I'm taking the car in tommorow so they can perform a leakdown/compression test. They are also replacing the dizzy cap, wires/plugs as part of some emissions thing.


The service manager apologized to me and said "he'd make it right".. I'm still a bit skeptical.

So, in all honesty where do you all think the oil went?? could that amount of oil be lost when changing the seals??

Also what would you say are typical Compression figures for an H22a4? I don't want the dealer to try and baffle me w/bullshit.

 

That's hella weird D.

Hope it all works out though .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DsR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Also what would you say are typical Compression figures for an H22a4? I don't want the dealer to try and baffle me w/bullshit.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Should be around 210 psi with no more then 20 psi variance between the 4 cylinders.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Behan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Should be around 210 psi with no more then 20 psi variance between the 4 cylinders. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks

I'm assuming this applies to a motor w/90k miles as well? or not?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DsR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thanks

I'm assuming this applies to a motor w/90k miles as well? or not?</TD></TR></TABLE>

yep, my 140k h22a1 has 210 on all 4 cyl.

 

I'm not real sure how it could have lost oil while they were working on it. Unless they did an oil change and just didn't refill it all the way. I just really shouldn't have lost any by just changing the front main seal and the cam seals. Especially not 2 quarts. The only other thing I can think of is that the tech would have drained a little oil to try and prevent the seals from leaking while he was changing the front seal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by yellow_jacket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not real sure how it could have lost oil while they were working on it. Unless they did an oil change and just didn't refill it all the way. I just really shouldn't have lost any by just changing the front main seal and the cam seals. Especially not 2 quarts. The only other thing I can think of is that the tech would have drained a little oil to try and prevent the seals from leaking while he was changing the front seal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, I just talked to Len@Baranco. and he said in the helms it says to drain the oil before changing the front main seal to prevent losing oil.

Also he said alot of the time they will do a complementary change, and then the lube techs forget to refill it.

Right now I'm looking for the pgs to the helms to see exactly what it states. If any of you have that lemme know!