At some point in the future, it will seem very important that Toyota won its first NASCAR touring series event at the Michigan truck race today. The importance of this can NOT be understated in the grand scheme of things.

There was a time when Toyota was a road racing stalwart with the IMSA GTO/GTU cars, Formula Atlantic, and myriad club racing efforts. They supported Millen's Pike's Peak and rally programs over the years as well but the marketing power of NASCAR provides a pretty huge value for them.

The sooner road racing and rallying grab a clue about keeping fans really happy, the less likely it will be that more manufacturer dollars will get spent elsewhere...

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The sooner road racing and rallying grab a clue about keeping fans really happy, the less likely it will be that more manufacturer dollars will get spent elsewhere...</TD></TR></TABLE>



I think the worst part is, once you've managed to chase away these sponsors and manufacturers, why would they come back, even if you did have a sufficient marketing plan?

 

I think it's great that toyota won a race, and I wonder if they will ever be allowed to run in the Nextel cup.
But I understand your point and I think that enough money has been thrown at nascar and circle racing. It really sucks that when you want to go see a high profile road race, you have to look outside the US.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerZook &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it's great that toyota won a race, and I wonder if they will ever be allowed to run in the Nextel cup.
But I understand your point and I think that enough money has been thrown at nascar and circle racing. It really sucks that when you want to go see a high profile road race, you have to look outside the US. </TD></TR></TABLE>

They will be allowed to run in Nextel Cup, look for them around 2007. Money talks, and its not hard to makei t say that the Camry is an American car, so there will be little struggle for them to enter the top series.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O’Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

They will be allowed to run in Nextel Cup, look for them around 2007. Money talks, and its not hard to makei t say that the Camry is an American car, so there will be little struggle for them to enter the top series.</TD></TR></TABLE>

it really pisses me off that a bunch of red-neck oky folk don't like that toyota is in nascar and what not. i was watching wind tunnel a while back and some of the comments that people had made about not allowing toyota in really pissed me off.

im not a fan of NASCAR or any circle track stuff but it brings a HUGE amount of money

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The sooner road racing and rallying grab a clue about keeping fans really happy, the less likely it will be that more manufacturer dollars will get spent elsewhere...

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

question?

do you think its the people in charge that fudge all of the series's up? or is it just american culture and road racing isn't what the american masses like. or could it be that a nascar and for example JGTC couldn't co-exsist?

seems like there are enough series that make it big over seas that it should be easy enough to model what they have and it would work. or would it just not work?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
question?

do you think its the people in charge that fudge all of the series's up? or is it just american culture and road racing isn't what the american masses like.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Road racing is obviously not as big here as it is overseas. I know some formula1 races can attract damn near half a million spectators.

There is a rally of sorts, called the Camel Trophy. It's a rally, in which all of the competitors race Land Rover Discoveries. Each participating country has two participants. A lot of the European countries that participate have huge parades for their drivers and they are treated like Michael Shumacher before they go. Well, I'm sure 98% of Americans have never heard of this race. The only reason I know is that my cousin ended up driving for America one year, and he goes as a support member every year now.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 743power &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Road racing is obviously not as big here as it is overseas. I know some formula1 races can attract damn near half a million spectators.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i relize that, i was just looking for input as to why its not succesfull.

EX
i know that with the entry of caddy into the world challenge race got ALOT of people upset because they bent the rules for them. i was wondering if it was things like this done by the sactioning body to make the sport unsuccesfull, or if people think there are other factors

 

I love that Toyota is involved and want to strangle someone when I hear people with sentiments to the contrary who claim to love the sport.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...and myriad club racing efforts...

K</TD></TR></TABLE> for not misusing "myriad."

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...question?

do you think its the people in charge that fudge all of the series's up? or is it just american culture and road racing isn't what the american masses like. or could it be that a nascar and for example JGTC couldn't co-exsist?</TD></TR></TABLE>

My little opinion is that it's a chicken-and-egg thing: Road racing isn't truly professional (commercially viable) and the series are generally managed by wealthy team owners who don't need it to be.

SCCA "Pro" racing is strictly amateur by comparison to NASCAR and GrandAm et al. are about the same - perhaps worse. The problem is breaking the cycle of road racing series that come and go (because the rich guys running them lose interest and buy sailboats or whatever); rules that change constantly (to favor or punish particular makes or models); "spec" series that die when their sugar daddy manufacturers changes marketing emphasis; and entrants who want to win without having to beat 40 other cars to do so.

There are also cultural issues like emphasizing technology and gee-whiz name plates over the quality of head-to-head racing (a la ALMS), lack of interest in "competition yellows," and the desire to play on natural road courses that are lousy for spectating.

It will be interesting to see how the Daytona Prototype effort gets on. It's the closest thing that we've seen to a sports car formula that might actually make financial sense.

K

 

I think it all boils down to spectators. Butts in seats. Even at the lowest levels oval track guys race in front of spectators. This has two side effects: entry fees are low and there are cash payouts even in the lowest hobby stock classes. Guys actually have a chance of running a break even or better program even at the lowest levels. Because they run in front of home town spectators sponsorship from local businesses actually makes sense. It all just spirals up from there, until you get to the point where people will actually buy Tide laundry detergent just because its advertised on their favorite drivers car.

anyone want to start a pool on who will be the first owner to run a Camry in Cup? If Toyota is in Cup will Honda be far behind?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
anyone want to start a pool on who will be the first owner to run a Camry in Cup? If Toyota is in Cup will Honda be far behind?</TD></TR></TABLE>

define far behind.. as in, how long..

toyota already has years of development put towards their NASCAR program.. besides, honda doesn't have any production V8's..


I also thought it would be the Solara to go into Nextel Cup, and not the Camry..

 

And Toyota isn't using anything resembling their production V8's either.

I think Honda has a long, long way to go before we'd see them doing the roundy-round thing. A decade at least.

 

Though a current-gen Accord coupe would look pretty badass NASCAR-ized... anyone wanna photochop this?!

 

I'd rather see Honda in the WRC. I'm a little biased though.


Just imagine:


EP3
Turbo'd K20A
Highly modded 4Wdrivetrain.
Championship white
Never having to hear about another WRX EVER AGAIN!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it all boils down to spectators. Butts in seats. Even at the lowest levels oval track guys race in front of spectators.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think this is key. After working at the local dirt track for several years, I was surprised to go to my first road race (that I remember) and there being almost no spectators. We need to get spectators out to watch the amateur events that are free or almost free.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">question?

do you think its the people in charge that fudge all of the series's up? or is it just american culture and road racing isn't what the american masses like. or could it be that a nascar and for example JGTC couldn't co-exsist?

seems like there are enough series that make it big over seas that it should be easy enough to model what they have and it would work. or would it just not work?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here is why NASCAR and stock car racing works in this country and road racing (and the IRL) doesnt:

NASCAR is run as a business, the business being attracting and entertaining race fans, thus bringing sponsors and profit. Everything in NASCAR, from the technical specs to the tracks to the drivers and the "development" ladder from the short tracks to Nextel Cup is designed to be sponsor and fan friendly. Afterall, without fans there'd be no sponsors, and with no sponsors there would be no racing.

Road racing, even at the "professional" level, is essentially run as a hobby. Everything is done in the interests of the competitor, because he is the one footing the bills to race his car. As long as the competitor is racing his car the way he wants to, he doesn't care whether or not there are 100 or 100,000 people in attendence. This leads to road racing being a niche sport that attracts very little sponsorship, and for the most part, only hardcore fans.

Want more specific examples of this? Look at the IRL and ALMS. They have poor business models that will eventually lead both series to severe sponsor problems. But why do they have these models? Because their respective owners (Tony George and Don Panoz) prefer their series to be run that way. Tony George wants his whole series to revolve around the Indy 500, and nothing else. Don Panoz wants his to revolve around Le Mans (a race not even on the series schedule!) and expensive, fancy sports cars, and nothing else.

The thing that frustrates me about all this is how the competitors with pull in the sport could change all this if they would actually look at the big picture. Maybe if someone made road racing a commercially viable advertising medium, instead of having privateers come and go every few years because they ran out of money, or aspiring open wheel pilots stopping at the Formula Ford or Skip Barber level because they don't the funds to go any further, there would be sponsors around to support these drivers and the sport in general.

As far as the open wheel situation is concerned, Memo Gidley has a great answer, that while not a complete solution, would be a definite step in the right direction. Promotion needs to begin at the lowest level. His theory being, if you build a fan base for karting, the fans will soon have their favorite drivers, and support them. Those same fans that follow driver X in karting will follow him in Formula BMW, Toyota Atlantic, and hopefully, Champ Car, all while still following new drivers in the karting ranks.

I'm just rambling now so I'll stop, but I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

EDIT: I should also say this. I believe, after looking at the popularity that IMSA GTP and CART/IndyCar once saw, that road racing could be relatively popular again. Not as popular as NASCAR, but thats probably a good thing. However, how many times can you keep alienating the fans by having a good thing go wrong before you just stop coming back altogether?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And Toyota isn't using anything resembling their production V8's either.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I read someplace that they had to develop a single-cam pushrod motor if they wanted to play in the big league - is this true?

 

They are using a ground-up design that has taken a lot of the strengths of the various ford/chevy/dodge designs and left a lot of the weaknesses behind. I believe they most closely resemble the Chevy. There aren't a whole lot of advantages to be gained but there are a few that Toyota engineers seem to think made a big difference for reliability at high rpms.

This has all been extensively researched as I have watched at least 2 shows on Speed about Toyota's truck effort.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They are using a ground-up design that has taken a lot of the strengths of the various ford/chevy/dodge designs and left a lot of the weaknesses behind. I believe they most closely resemble the Chevy. There aren't a whole lot of advantages to be gained but there are a few that Toyota engineers seem to think made a big difference for reliability at high rpms.

This has all been extensively researched as I have watched at least 2 shows on Speed about Toyota's truck effort. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like I read (or watched) similar material. Something like NASCAR told them spec the engine anyplace within the bounds of the current engines and rules, so Toyota picked the best of all the designs.

I still think it's all a bit silly. Would have been more interested in seeing them run a DOHC V8 at reduced displacement or something else "high tech".

 

*spits chew* High-tech? *grabs shotgun*

 

Yeah, but Toyota already caught enough of a poop-storm for what they did do... ie, borrowing from the best parts of the existing engines.

Imagine the backlash if Toyota was allowed new rules and managed to win with them. It would be a PR disaster for NASCAR to allow the newcomer to obliterate the "Americans".

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I read someplace that they had to develop a single-cam pushrod motor if they wanted to play in the big league - is this true?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I remember reading a few years back that toyota was running a DOHC V8 in the Nastruck series. It did well, but lacked any low end power compared to it's pushrod competitors.

 

The point, Mr. Monkey, is to avoid those differences for the good of equitable racing. More people care about racing than they do about the cam drive layouts, which is another example of why NASCAR works and road racing doesn't.

There are no real "Chevy" pieces in a Chevy Cup-spec engine so it's not silly that there aren't any "Toyota" pieces in a Toyota truck engine.

Sean makes some excellent points that I wish were obvious to people with money and time on their hands who might be interested in road racing...

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O’Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
EDIT: I should also say this. I believe, after looking at the popularity that IMSA GTP and CART/IndyCar once saw, that road racing could be relatively popular again. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know that road racing ever really filled the stands. I was looking at the pictures in Mark Donohue's book last night and even back then (which might have been the hey-day of road racing with the "real" trans-am, can-am etc) there were a lot of empty bleachers.

I think that open wheel racing on ovals did fill the stands though. It had a ladder system that came up from the short tracks, just like NASCAR does today.

RacerZook: I dunno what nastrucks are, but the motor in the toyota Craftsman trucks in a pushrod V8 designed by TRD specifically for NASCAR. It's not derived from any toyota street product. There was an article about it in Circle Track a couple years ago.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are no real "Chevy" pieces in a Chevy Cup-spec engine so it's not silly that there aren't any "Toyota" pieces in a Toyota truck engine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You mean I can't buy a RWD Monte Carlo? Or a two door Taurus? Rats.

I know why they do it the way they do. I'd just prefer to see something new in the mix (and by new, I mean new, and not just another spec car with Toyota badging).