i had a block sleeved at RS awhile back and i just took it to a local machine shop and had it bored and honed....well i got the block and pistons back and the pistons will barely go in (have to use gentle force) how they are suppose to go in...but if you turn the piston 90 degrees it will go in just fine... the sleeves are now oval and all messed up...so i'm wondering is it necessary to use a torque plate when boring? i'm pretty sure this is why the block is the way that it is....will it correct it self when my head is on? any help???

 

Considering that the pistons should go in w/no pressuse since there is supposed to be a clearence of several thousandths or more,then they most likely fucked up when boring and honing it.But w/o seeing it it's tought to say,are the pistons press on pins or full floating?They may have distorted the piston skirt putting the pins in.

 

up

 

A torque plate is definitely not needed for boring and honing open deck sleeves. The bore should be round , have somewhere between .002-5" clearance and it should not matter which direction you turn the piston. Something is wrong.

 

yeah, all the sleeves are oval at the top! can't even get the piston in the cylinder one way.

 

My rs block was 8-9 tenths out when I got it from them too. They said"this was normal and the clearance side to side will be less than front to back.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My rs block was 8-9 tenths out when I got it from them too. They said"this was normal and the clearance side to side will be less than front to back. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know what there on but send it this way.WTF how hard is it to bore and hone a round hole???

 

lol...your pistons are oval.

torque plates are a thing of the past. it doesnt really matter if you have wet or dry sleeves, if you run an mls head gasket, torque plating is a waste of time.

have you mic'ed your cylinders? i wouldnt be too sure your cylinders are oval. its kinda hard for the boring machine to run an "out-of-round" bit and cut 4 oval cylinders.

 

yeah but if that torque plate was pushing pressure where it shouldn't have??????

 

I was told that open deck dont use torque plates to bore and hone either. Only closed deck like a h22.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CallMeJesus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol...your pistons are oval.

torque plates are a thing of the past. it doesnt really matter if you have wet or dry sleeves, if you run an mls head gasket, torque plating is a waste of time.

have you mic'ed your cylinders? i wouldnt be too sure your cylinders are oval. its kinda hard for the boring machine to run an "out-of-round" bit and cut 4 oval cylinders. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's just as hard for a cnc lathe to cut oval pistons also.If the pistons were oval why do they fit in certain spots?And Tbone saying it happened to his block is good enough for me to beleive it.
The out of roundness probably happened when honning out the last 5 thous.,he may have had the tension to high and it distorted the cyl.Just my opinion though.

 

you could be right, but nothing can be certain til everything is mic'ed, cross mic'ed. if all 4 cylinders are "oval" in the exact same spots, meaning the pistons fits better in different spots, id put money down that the pistons are out of round. besides, last i checked pistons have always been out of round, they are never absolutely circular.

you dont torque plate engines that are going to run an mls head gasket, plain and simple. the mls doesnt allow the cylinders to distort under torque. when you use fel-pro type gaskets, crush gaksets, then torque can distort a cylinder. but mls head gaskets have remedied such problem, making torque plates a thing of the past.

im a machine shop junkie. did you know you can pick up 18hp by changing the firing order on a 5.0l ford engine?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CallMeJesus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you could be right, but nothing can be certain til everything is mic'ed, cross mic'ed. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep been there done that , again and again and again, they came up 8-9 tenths max, out every time.





Btw I didnt write bore "gage" on the side of its case..lol

 

rs machines sucks ***** , im sorry to say but im sure this is just the beginning of your problems......

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CallMeJesus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">besides, last i checked pistons have always been out of round, they are never absolutely circular.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True probably all pistons are alittle barrel shaped,but never to the extent that they woudn't fit w/normal piston to wall tolerences.

 

I have had this problem before and its a simple fix.When the machine shop hones your block they need to Stagger the cylinders as they bore.First do #1,then 3,2,4.When honing,the cutting creates heat which in turn expands and probably is a true bore.But when it cools it shrinks down and gets distorted.Get your block honed again.Its obviously too small if the pistons dont fit.The piston manafacturer will give you a recommended piston/wall clearance.My wiseco slugs were .003. Its a good idea to have your pistons at the machine shop so the machinist can be accurate.And hope he has a dial bore indicator!

 

i personally dont see how a bore machine can cut an oval cylinder, but im confident you know what youre talking about tbone. a stone shouldnt be worked so much as to cut that much material off the cylinder wall, that is just poor machining if thats the case.

as for the pistons, ever stop to think that they are "cocked" til you rotate them 90d?

 

Cylinder bores need to be round, at least to .ooo5 for ring seal. Rings are round, pistons are not, until they get to operating temp. And then I am not sure because I have never measured a piston at 1000 degrees. The skirts are "cam" ground with the across the skirt section wider than across the pin. They are also wider at the base of the piston than the top. The reason being is more AL. material in the pin bosses and top of the piston than the thin skirts, this expands more under heat and becomes more uniform. The answer to your question is that you need the block re-honed and plate is not necessary if they take their time and keep enough coolant running and alternate cylinders the same as the firing order. Unfortunely your block may be to big when you redo it.

 

yeah the pistons are fine. they go in one way but not the other. i think the torque plate distorted it somehow. it seems to be only at the top of the bore, but i don't have any equipment to measure it properly. this was a rs sleeved block, but the bore was done at a local machine shop that brags about its $80k dollar bore machine but doesn't know how to use it.

 

if your are cutting on the block use a torque plate.

 

torque plates are not necessary if you are going to run an mls head gasket, or if you have a wet cylinder engine, ie: d or b-series.

anybody who swears by torque plates i wanna know, how much time or knowledge do you have of machining?

 

makes me wonder... how would an oval shaped cylinder and piston work as compared to a conventional cylinder/piston..... hmmmmm

 

Bill Miller, AKA All MTR TODA HATCH, has made good on our deal and has refunded my money for the parts I purchased back in May.

I would like to offer my sincerest apologies to Bill for any blemish I may have left on his reputation here at honda-tech.com.

I wish Bill a speedy recovery from his accident, and luck with buiding his motor.


Modified by coil222 at 6:34 PM 7/31/2004

 

machine shop said they put the torque plate back on and the cylinders went back ok....and measured out just fine...so they thnk that if the head is on that it will be ok...but i'm not sure about that i've never seen anything like this before...they also said it depends on what headgasket i'm using...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by All MTR TODA HATCH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">machine shop said they put the torque plate back on and the cylinders went back ok....and measured out just fine...so they thnk that if the head is on that it will be ok....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you see them do that? I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to even make a torque plate for an open deck B, much less use one. When tightening the bolts, the area affected has no influence on the sleeve. It absolutely does not matter what head gasket you use either. If you beat those pistons to get them in the block, your engine will never turn over. You cannot build a motor like that.