When you go to the big show in our little world what kind of show do you see? What kind of show do you go to see?

There are many shows going simultaneously on many levels, on no particular schedule, unfolding along lines of chance and coincidence. It's alot like reading a long book where the good stuff is scattered and context dependent. If you skim and rush you only get part of the story, but the price is alot of standing around watching the Seinfeldian "nothing".

Starting with the backstory: I miss Jerome - crossover star from one part of the story. I missed Duane too - though differently of course. A friendly acquaintance is the route to the parts of the story I'm most interested in, and they're hard to build in a short time in a competitive environment.

Was it Chris Economaki who used to ask a driver "What's it like out there?"

I like to ask crew chiefs "What's going on under there?" Meaning under the sheet metal. Or "What's going on in there?" Meaning inside their cranium.

Chris' question was ridiculous and impossible, but just about any answer might do well enough for the purpose. My questions are relatively straightforward by comparison, but the answers - if given - are still just more puzzle pieces - if you can trust them. Trust them? These guys are all Racers after all.

Speaking of racers and racing then - the race itself. There's so much going on at one time in one place that it just gets harder and harder to watch the actual race. There's the "race-ing", if any occurs. And in that there are stories played out with respect to the drivers and the hardware. But the part I work at seeing is how the hardware is working. The other part I have to work at is resisting inevitable somnambulism.

So what's the story? For me it's the development of the TSX. And to a lesser degree the Mazda 6 that Tri-point just put into service. And the only thing I can depend on is my own eyes.

I watched the whole Touring Car field closely thru T10-11-12 from every angle. The gold standard was pretty easy to identify: the BMW. In the hands of drivers like Auberlin and Stretch, they can be pounded over the curbing in 10, land, and be turned into 11, as smooth as butter. Knowing that transition as I do, it was a sight to behold, and speaks to the competence and relative completion of their development. And not a little too to the level of driver.

At the other end of the spectrum was the Focus - especially when actually driven by Gidley. It is fun though to see a car flailed that ragged.

And in the middle somewhere were the TSX's. In the first practice session they were porpoising harshly in the landing from 10 making the turn in to 11 very dicey. It was fun watching Pierre, because right out of the box he was hammering it.

They had a subframe failure in that session and the crew got to work. I asked Pierre if they were going to make a setup change, and he said probably not considering the amount of work necessary to changeout the subframe and the pressure of time. So I took a couple of hours to run around with a friend.

Next session - a marked improvement.

I ask Pierre - he says they "changed springs, damper settings, and everything". So I go back into lurk mode, hoping to get acquainted with the new crew chief Brian and ask him some questions. Not least among them his philosophy with respect to bars and springs. I lurk for hours, as I have in years past, which is compounded by temperatures of 100+ and a beating sun. It was funny when during the short prayer before the race over the PA, the minister guy prayed for the drivers hydration.

Anyway, at some point I got to talk to Brian for a little bit, and of course it was generally interesting, but he declined to tell me what he'd done to Pierre's car. I can't hold it against him. He owes me nothing, and I certainly have no right to the information, but it was a dissappointment to have such a nice case study right in front of me and not be able to access the solution.

But maybe I saw some spring nomenclature, and noted bar dimensions. And maybe I estimated some motion ratios, and observed some control arm angles, and the deflection as the car went up and down on the jack. And there was that front sway bar laying under the table in front of the scales. And I have an idea which way I'd have turned which *****. And maybe Brian laughed and told me I'm taking this much too seriously. Maybe I am...and maybe I AM!

Secrecy is of course pretty common in the paddock. There's a sort of pyramid of knowledge and at each step of the way it's been earned. The combined knowledge and competence of the crew is indispensable to the success of the team. It's driven home to me over and over the degree to which these people have placed racing near the center of their lives.

I can see the kind of questions I ask a guy like Brian, depending on how they're asked, as a fine compliment, or an insensitive insult. Being the guy I am, I hung around till they were just about loaded for the trip home, and in saying goodbye I told him I'd been watching closely during the race, and that some remaining more gentle porpoising was still visible, and that maybe more of whatever he'd done was worth trying. He responded with a sort of query as to whether more would necessarily be be beneficial, to which I answered maybe, maybe not. He told me that Pierre wanted to take it further, but that he'd held back. Without telling you the results, I will tell you that there's an example of a working relationship and a serious racing effort. Brian looks to be a solid choice for Realtime.

Something new that got my attention was the new Mazda 6 run by Tri-Point. The front suspension is very similar to what we're used to, and the racefab was first rate. What first grabbed my attention was the first set of Koni 2822's I've seen. Tasty units, although access to the adjusters requires pulling the wheel as with the typical Ohlins TT44 installation. One of the crew was very nice while not revealing anything to specific. The crew chief was likewise friendly and accessible. I wish I'd been able to talk with him a while longer. I hung around their camp off and on and was pretty impressed with the atmosphere the crew sustains.

It was also kind fun developing an awareness of the engine builder competition. Sunbelt and Comptech reps were never hard to find. The politics of World Challenge were visible too. From the active management of the competition to the opera at impound it's another reminder that you're not in club racing anymore Toto.

And depite that the human side of World Challenge still has lots of charm. Randy Pobst stands out as an example, going out of his way to make friendly small talk with fans ogling the magnificent Audi's. And Matt Plumb was very friendly too.

Somebody called World Challenge club racing for the wealthy. That's not too inaccurate, but it's not fair or complete. It is what it is.

Scott, who enjoyed seeing all the NW peeps and learning about Tossed Salad at dinner....please don't tell me what happened after I went home.

 

isn't the world challenge gonna be in portland soon?

 

Any word on Stretch from yesterday? Apparently he was put on probation the previous day for punting everybody...and then in yesterday's coverage, just about pushed Plumb into the wall approaching the finish line...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rice_classic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">isn't the world challenge gonna be in portland soon?</TD></TR></TABLE>

This very weekend. Of course, it won't be on Speed Channel until next weekend. Why won't they show those races live?

On another note, that was a great write-up, Scott. Keep 'em coming.

Darren, who wishes his desire to have great personal insight will actually manifest itself in an eloquent, post-race summary some day..........Nah, I'll leave it to Scott.

 

I need to make it out to Lime Rock next year for the SWC race.

Nice writeup.

 

My non-report above is from Portland - they raced here yesterday (Saturday).

Stretch was there - driving - and he looked pretty good. Those Wheels America cars crack me up - especially when the crew is cleaning/waxing them (they're painted flat black - with florescent green/orange logory).

Scott, who, having cooked for three days in a row, has seen enough for one weekend...

 

I attended the Mid-Ohio race a few weeks ago and enjoyed the paddock walking and chat more than the race. There were exactly two postion changes after the first lap in the top 7 car during the race as 6th and 7th and 2nd and 3rd swapped once each. Pretty processional on track.

Scott, I would be interested in your input on what the Tri-Point 6 looked like, particularly if you were watching over bumps and how the car settled. We built two sets of 2822s for them although only one car has run so far and they sent one set back between Sears and Portland to alter the valving as their initial spring rate guesses were greatly increased quickly at Sears. Their intial comment was that the car handles quite well for being thrown into a race weekend with no testing but the car was heavy and engoine underpowered and needing development.

Those 2822s to my knowedge are the first not only for a fendered car in the US but I am pretty sure the first for a non-IRL car. Hopefully there will be more.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I attended the Mid-Ohio race a few weeks ago and enjoyed the paddock walking and chat more than the race. There were exactly two postion changes after the first lap in the top 7 car during the race as 6th and 7th and 2nd and 3rd swapped once each. Pretty processional on track.

Scott, I would be interested in your input on what the Tri-Point 6 looked like, particularly if you were watching over bumps and how the car settled. We built two sets of 2822s for them although only one car has run so far and they sent one set back between Sears and Portland to alter the valving as their initial spring rate guesses were greatly increased quickly at Sears. Their intial comment was that the car handles quite well for being thrown into a race weekend with no testing but the car was heavy and engoine underpowered and needing development.

Those 2822s to my knowedge are the first not only for a fendered car in the US but I am pretty sure the first for a non-IRL car. Hopefully there will be more.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you really want there to be more, I could use some for the prelude.
Of course, I'll run a sticker so people will know why my car handles so well on the way to work.

 

Lee a question for you.

Currently I run Penskes on my USTCC Type R. At Portland in particular they let me run over the curbs without upsetting the chassis. I think this is because the blow-off allows the rapid suspension movement and then resettles into the lower speed valving.

Now USTCC is having a fit about the remote reservoirs. So to the meat of the question.

Will the new Konis 2822 allow the same adjustments as my Penskes without using a remote reservoir?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It is what it is. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That it is.
I am amazed every weekend that I attend a race... so much to learn/see/do.

Nice to meet you in person Scott (Sears Point).

Wish I could have made it to Portland... (looks like the team did well)... but R's at 'Beaver = more fun.

 

Lee,

I'll bet you can have a good time at the races. As a vendor you're privy to so much more than a guy like me.

Yeah, I paid attention to Altenburgs car. It, PD's Nissan, and the two TSX's didn't lift the inside rear at the turn in to T12. The roll angles of these cars was indetectable to the naked eye in the absence of a useful reference. I waited and waited for Pierre or Matt to clip the inside curbing so I could watch the lag to lift, but they never clipped it. The rest of the fwd cars - Protege's, RSX, and Focus did lift and roll visibly.

In the case of the Mazda 6 landing from the T10 curbing, I paid particular attention because I'd had a quick talk with a friend about the differences between the behaviour of the BMW's and the TSX's - which was suggested to be partly due to the kind of biased setup required to make fwd work. The behavior of Altenburgs car (and PD's too) and the associated times laid that theory to rest quickly. I can't say it looked as smooth as the best of the BMW's, but it was close enough that if you weren't paying attention you wouldn't see the difference. There was no detectable porpoising and the turn in to T11 was smooth with no sudden twitchy yaw change that I associate with a car that's floating as the driver makes the input change. The Focus by comparison (on Dutch Proflex's btw) whipped one way and then whipped the other way - though how much of that had to do with Memo I don't know.

The Tri-Point crewman I talked to wouldn't divulge their wheel rates, and their omission of the front bar was said to be just a coincidence of the early stage of their development - and not necessarily representative of a committed position. The TSX's and the Nissan both had significant amounts of front bar.

I have an idea that a car with dynamic toe-in on the outside rear will need more tricks to kill the push, and that the TSX and Nissan don't appear to have this problem. Of course the Nissan can't, and it's safe to assume it doesn't have any unfavorable roll steer. The Tri-Point guys wouldn't allow pics, and now I've forgotten the rear suspension design on the 6, but I bet they've got decent control over the direction the rear wheels are pointing too.

Scott, who came away with just a few little pieces to the puzzle...was it worth it? Of course not. I think maybe I will go watch at Laguna after all... I'm hopeless.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Scott, who enjoyed seeing all the NW peeps and learning about Tossed Salad at dinner....please don't tell me what happened after I went home.
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Good to see you again too Scott. After dinner (and many beerz), I tried to challenge Demian to a stop light race in his M3 vs. my F350, but he wouldn't have it.
Kyle may have polished off a bottle of kiwi flavored 20/20, but we left their hotel when it was still half full.
On the way back to our hotel at 0'dark thirty, I tried to challenge Nash to a stop light race in Kristin's 1.8T Golf. We'll just say I had him off the line.

It was a great weekend. I think I drank 25 gallons of water and never took a ****.

I'll have pictures from the track soon.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

On the way back to our hotel at 0'dark thirty, I tried to challenge Nash to a stop light race in Kristin's 1.8T Golf. We'll just say I had him off the line.

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You niglected to mention that you were on the inside lane of a double turn lane. I was driving someone elses car too... not good to beat on someone elses car too bad when they are in the passenger seat

Nash

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Scott, who enjoyed seeing all the NW peeps and learning about Tossed Salad at dinner....please don't tell me what happened after I went home.


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Scott, Scott, Scott...This was worth the read, thought I'd hear a little more about details, but never thought I'd hear all about your tossing salad ventures!!!!! Too much info there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Fastom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Currently I run Penskes on my USTCC Type R. At Portland in particular they let me run over the curbs without upsetting the chassis. I think this is because the blow-off allows the rapid suspension movement and then resettles into the lower speed valving.

Now USTCC is having a fit about the remote reservoirs. So to the meat of the question.

Will the new Konis 2822 allow the same adjustments as my Penskes without using a remote reservoir?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You are correct that the digressiveness of the valving curve and the blow off point allows the chassis to remain more stable by letting really large motions and piston speeds to go away quickly rather than trying to control it by generating a ton of force and pulling tires off the ground and upsetting the chassis. Always stiff is not a good answer, a good valving knows when to be firm for control but when to let go of big motions that the chassis doesn't want to try to deal with so it can quickly get back to the parts that it does want to control. This is key to keeping the tire on the ground as much as possible for cornering and power and brake application.

Almost every single damper that we make is a digressive valving to one degree or another even if it is just a single adjustable street shock. Our double adjustables tend to also be quite digressive as well so we can do things like this with single and double adjustable units where many of our competitors will need a third or fourth adjustment to keep the high speed forces from getting too high. Often times customers who are used to a thriple or more adjustable Penske, JRZ, Moton, etc. can do just fine with a double adjustable Koni with a normally digressive valving.

Koni has not needed or used external reservoirs since the 1960s and that was more an issue of volumetric displacement need and not generation of forces. The 2822 is a reservoir-less shock with high and low speed rebound and compression damping adjustments. The only issue is that they are very new and we are very limited in length and mounting options right now. I have over 100 2822s in stock for IRL car but they have well less than 2 inches total of stroke so they are too short for almost every car and even their components tend to be too short to be salvaged for other cars. If anyone here has multiple recent IRL Dallara or G-Force cars and would like a smokin-deal on fabulous shocks, let me know.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If anyone here has multiple recent IRL Dallara or G-Force cars and would like a smokin-deal on fabulous shocks, let me know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

*Checking garage* Oh no! I seem to have misplaced my IRL car!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah, I paid attention to Altenburgs car....
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Thanks for the input. I have not seen the 6 in person as they still had both Proteges at M-O. The 6 is not a strut car at all and is a pretty sophisticated system front and rear I believe so I would think with proper development and sorting it shoud be better then the strut Proteges, RSXs, and Focus, especially over less than perfect

You can't blame them for holding their cards pretty close to their chest on rates and photography as they are really just getting started with the car and are sticking their necks out pretty far financially to be the first people to develop these cars. They probably don't want their tests, developments, successes and failures to be broadcast to their competition and likely posted on the 'net for the world to review and comment on, especially when the car has only been running less than two whole weeks with no testing other than races yet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You can't blame them for holding their cards pretty close to their chest on rates and photography as they are really just getting started with the car and are sticking their necks out pretty far financially to be the first people to develop these cars. They probably don't want their tests, developments, successes and failures to be broadcast to their competition and likely posted on the 'net for the world to review and comment on, especially when the car has only been running less than two whole weeks with no testing other than races yet.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Lee,

Yes, and No.

The secrecy thing is, IMO, overdone. The competitive and commercial value of the kinds of things I'm discussing here is about zilch. The entertainment and instructional value is potentially great for a very small minority of us.

The Mazda 6 has a very Mercedes/Honda front suspension - double a-arm with tall upright, damper on yoke. Everybody who want's to know about it knows. The rear is yet another multi-link.

I don't see them hanging their necks out as you say. That just comes with the territory. They either bet good or bet bad on their selection. What with Mazda's willingness to help, and the active management of competitive potential, there's little chance that they've made a terminally bad choice. Unless they can't make reasonable and reliable power out of the motor.

I thought about such things before I decided to respond to your question out here in the open. I know Tri-Point has a reputation as a good development team, and I know that alot of other teams have no such reputation. Such teams aren't likely to make up their deficits on the basis of anything somebody like me see's and writes about.

You do want the secret that Koni 2822's can work good to get out don't you?

Scott, who want's to clarify something very important: I learned about Tossed Salad from Hearing About It....I could just as well have remained ignorant, though I'd have missed out on laffing so hard at how Zack told it.

 

Lee,

You've probably looked at the Penske literature and you're familiar with the VDP piston? You got an opinion you'd be willing to share about it? Some shocks have a kinda VDP looking curve with a blowoff on top. Can you do that with a 2822?

And if this isn't going too far: The 2822's body adjuster block reminds me alot of the TT44's adjuster ciruits between the inner and outer tubes? Similar idea, just another way to get around whatever they patented?

Can you explain the benefit of having both hi and low speed rebound adjustment? Or anything other than a relatively linear rebound curve?

Scott, who wishes some of the secrets of the damper world were more accessible...

 

i'd love to hear about koni 3011s actually!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Scott, who want's to clarify something very important: I learned about Tossed Salad from Hearing About It....I could just as well have remained ignorant, though I'd have missed out on laffing so hard at how Zack told it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

[Waitress] "Would you like a tossed salad with that for $2.99"?

[Zach] "Hey... Waitaminute... I hardly know you. Maybe we should get to know each other first. Uhh... What's your favorite color?"

My face muscles were sore from laughing so much. Way too much fun

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The entertainment and instructional value is potentially great for a very small minority of us.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Since the car was not even a car two weeks ago and they have only just started to work with it, I can see that they may not immediately want wnat Monday morning quarterbacks on-line discussing something that they just tried, made, succeeded or failed on. "OMG...can you believe they did this?" , etc., etc. I know they are getting some support from Mazda on this but they do have a lot of their own money from this small business wrapped up in it and it may be earlier than they want to really lay the cards on the table. They were one of the first teams to make the Protege fast (first win for sure) and look how many of those ran well in the series. Maybe the 6 has some of those same opportunties as well but that will be after a lot of effort is invested. I don't think they are reinventing the wheel but on the otherhand they probably aren't ready yet to open up the classroom either for students and critics.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You do want the secret that Koni 2822's can work good to get out don't you?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes eventually but first we need to have people try, use, learn, etc. with them. When the time comes that the bugs are worked out and more gains are being made than errors, then we want people to get to know more about them. A false start does us no good and a negative start ("Those new Konis are no good" or "confusing", etc.) is worse. One of the problems that we had with the IRL cars was that even at that pretty high level, many teams were taking them off the car and using what might generally be considered a lesser unit that thney already had experience with instead of taking the new part, working with it and giving it a chance. The teams that gave it a real shot seemed to have embraced it, the teams that took them off and installed the previous year's shocks probably still have them sitting on the shelf untouched.

I don't think Tri-Point has a reputation for being that secretive generally really but it is awfully early in the game. I know my racecar sits in may garage with a nearly stock, 180K mile engine in it and I expect that will be the powerplant for my first out with the car to shakedown the other aspects without risk to hurt a new proper race engine. Once I know the brakes, handling and a million other parts are going to work, I'll introduce the race engine. I would hope that whomever sees my first outing in that car doesn't make a long lasting judgement before the car and I are ready for judgement.

 

Lee,

Oh, I know. And I get it.

But, like some of the well grounded celebreties say: "You don't want the spot light? Then Stay Home!"

And, what are they gonna do? Go slow and lose races so nobody will know how good the 6 is?

Scott, who thinks, that in everything, when you really boil it down, we're all DOOMED!

 

Sorry, at work today I needed to be doing more work and less monitoring H-T even if it was about shocks.

The VDP is pretty new to me as I have recently taken over the Motorsports dept in addition to my Automotive duties so I have had limited need to keep up with Penske stuff until recently. I know that Penske does a lot of changing of piston designs to get specific shapes whereas we can get those shapes all using the same pistons and changing the valving components. The VDP is interesting that they seem to build a lot of nose angle for control but then blow off or level off pretty quickly so the forces don't continue to climb too much and the platform remains stable just like I mentioned above.

The part the surprises me is that they are wanting to let the shock again go progressive and gain force rapidly at very high speed. I can't for the life of me think where you would want this to occur except in a motocross or extreme offroad situation where you are going to drop the vehicle out of the sky and you want want to keep from overtravelling. Not really in the realm of handling or a vehicle Koni would be targeting, maybe just self -preservation on an extreme situation. Not even our pro-rally or Paris-Dakar dampers have needed this that I have heard of. The 2822 would not do this nor would we want it to and a perforamcne pavement or even dirt track racecar wouldn't need it either.

I am familiar with the basics of the flow pattern of the 2822 but not the TT44. Their site does reference that all of the 4 adjusters on the TT44 are bleed only and I know that the 2822 bump and rebound low speed circuits change more than bleed and the high speed circuits are not what one would normally call bleed generally plus none of the Koni ones include needle valves which I am guessing the TT44 bleeds are. I didn't see a flow diagram so I can't be sure. The 2822 high speeds are metering oil flow from end to end and not through the piston so an outer chamber is created.

Basically it is as I mentioned above with a digressive curve that you want the shock to be awake and aware when motion is subtle but after a fair amount of speed is generated then it lets it allow really high speed forces to go bye to as to keep the chassis as settles as possible. The best example that I can thinkl of for digressive valving needs is the sereis of Esses right after the pit straight at Surfer's Paradise in Oz for the Champ cars. The car lives it's life at extremely low speeds where tons of control is needed except for the three (?) berms that you are committed to hit to take a fast liek through the Esses. A digressive valving lets the car be firm at the low speeds but lets the wheels move then come back to the ground quickly when they hit the obligatory berms rather than building a ton of force, upsetting the chassis and throwing the wheels up off the pvement and requiring time for them to settle back down and grip is lost. Although we can generally do this with a single adjustable valving to create digression and blow offs (although not as sharp and specific a blow of point), a proper independant high and low speed adjuster will let you trim these points specifically for extremely fine tuning if needed. Linear curves are generally not good news because the intial rate of climb is not as rapid at low speed as you might want and the high speed is regularly too high unless the pavement is just so perfect that the chassis can't get upset and the car doesn't really see much in the way of high piston speeds.

Not secrets and fully accessible...all it takes is an order and a credit card

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Basically it is as I mentioned above with a digressive curve that you want the shock to be awake and aware when motion is subtle but after a fair amount of speed is generated then it lets it allow really high speed forces to go bye to as to keep the chassis as settles as possible. The best example that I can thinkl of for digressive valving needs is the sereis of Esses right after the pit straight at Surfer's Paradise in Oz for the Champ cars. The car lives it's life at extremely low speeds where tons of control is needed except for the three (?) berms that you are committed to hit to take a fast liek through the Esses. A digressive valving lets the car be firm at the low speeds but lets the wheels move then come back to the ground quickly when they hit the obligatory berms rather than building a ton of force, upsetting the chassis and throwing the wheels up off the pvement and requiring time for them to settle back down and grip is lost. Although we can generally do this with a single adjustable valving to create digression and blow offs (although not as sharp and specific a blow of point), a proper independant high and low speed adjuster will let you trim these points specifically for extremely fine tuning if needed. Linear curves are generally not good news because the intial rate of climb is not as rapid at low speed as you might want and the high speed is regularly too high unless the pavement is just so perfect that the chassis can't get upset and the car doesn't really see much in the way of high piston speeds.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lee,

All of this sounds like you're talking about Compression Damping. I asked about Rebound.

I've been indoctrinated in the belief that rebound damping ought not be used to control the balance of the car, and that it be minimized in pursuit of grip. As I read your post in the context of rebound all I can really see you saying is that you want rapid low speed force generation for tuning purposes (a nose). Would you contend that my indoctrination is faulty, and such use doesn't compromise grip? Or say that it's a necessary compromise and the customer demands it? Bear in mind that the typical linear rebound curve I see is pretty flat. I can't think of who else offers multiple rebound adjustment.

The Ohlins low speed bleed adjusters aren't tapered needles in a fixed orifice, and the VDP type curves I've seen don't ramp up too much before the blowoff. I know some sophisticated road racers using VDP pistons.

You've made a point of application of the word "bleed". I know about tapered needles, and rotating orifice barrels (both bleed where I come from), and preload on shimstacks. Are you saying that the 2822 adjusters are of some other type?

Scott, who's trying to get as much info from Lee as he can without giving his credit card number...