Just so you know, I tried searching, so if this has already been addressed, please kindly point me in the right direction.

If not, I'm planning on buying a Crow 6-point harness. My Momo Cup seat only has one hole, in the center of the bottom of the seat. Is the correct way to install both the sub-straps through that single hole, or do they make seats with 2 holes and I bought the wrong one? I know we're required to have at least 6-point harnesses in a couple of years (SCCA), so I want to get used to wearing one now, even though at this point, I could get away with a 5 until the mandate goes into effect (I think it's Jan/2007).

Thanks for the info in advance.

 

i have the same harness and my seat only has one hole also.

in one of my threads some dude says that you run them threw the same holes as the waist and they come up around each of you legs, i didn't run them cause my seat is a perfect fit and i don't neeed them

 

These are the type that mount to the floor, though, not the loop around type.

 

If it's a long V-shaped thing with a tab (or the buckle?) at the point, the ends go through the side holes in the seat - under the lap, typically - and to the same mounting points as the laps. You sit on the crotch straps and they run up the insides of your legs. 6-pt. harnesses are WAY more comfortable and (I believe) way safer than 5-pt. systems.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i didn't run them cause my seat is a perfect fit and i don't neeed them</TD></TR></TABLE>

Unfortunately the purpose of a sub is NOT to make an ill-fitting seat work better.

Even a "perfect fitting" seat will not prevent submarining and lapbelt elevation.

 

what about the fact that there is just no room? i know it would be safe to run it, but im just doing HPDE events right now so the 4 point is all good for me

 

There's never "no room" to run a 6-point if there's already a 4-pt. in there. The belts run through the same holes and to the same mounting points.

The most important function of a crotch belt is to give the shoulders something to pull against. Without them, if the shoulders are tight enough to really work, the harness buckle is pulling up into your guts.

K

 

A 4-point harness is not safe for anything - not even HPDE.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what about the fact that there is just no room? i know it would be safe to run it, but im just doing HPDE events right now so the 4 point is all good for me</TD></TR></TABLE>

you'll find that your seat isn't so perfect fitting when you're going through a corner, drive through a puddle of coolant someone at your HPDE has leaked, and then crash into something off course.

i'd go ahead and install the other 2 points.

 

so would it be god to mount the sub harness to the same place as the lap or no?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so would it be god to mount the sub harness to the same place as the lap or no?</TD></TR></TABLE>

On a 6-point I typically mount the sub belts to the front seat bolts and run the belts over the front of the seat. On a 5 point I mount the sub as far back as I can. Since I am small I tyoically have the 5th point mounted just behind the front seat.

You want that belt to tighten as you slide forward, not loosen so you need it mounted behind its location where it passes to the top of the seat.

 

This has gotten slightly off topic from my original question. I was talking about the anti-sub straps that mount to the floor pan of the car, under the seat. On the Crow website, and I believe it's detailed on the simpson site, too, it says this:

"6-Point Anti-Submarine Belt should be anchored at an angle of 20 degrees behind the Chest Line as measured from the intersection of the Chest Line and the lap belt buckle. Mounts should be approximately 8 to 12 inches apart (approximately located under each hip and as close to the body as possible). Two routing holes in the seat or a special seat mount may be required. Using the 5-Point hole detracts from the effectiveness of this system."

So, I guess that means I can't use a 6-point harness with my single-hole-in-the-seat seat. Oh, well. My seat is due to be replaced about the same time the belts would be, so I'll deal with a 6-point then. I have never seen any seats that specify they are made for 6-point harnesses, where the sub-straps go through the seat and mount to the floor (which I think I will like better than the loop around your leg style). Anyone know where to find the 6-point designed seats?

 

I wasn't clear, obviously.

There is NO such thing - so far as I have seen in 20 years of doing this stuff - as a seat that has special holes for a 6-pt harness. Even if you don't have the loop/D-ring type subs, run them through the side holes of the seat so you sit on them. They go under your thighs while the laps essentially go over them. The net result is a fit like a climbing harness, with loops around your femurs and quads.

If you manufacturer says something different in their instructions, ask them for clarification. I haven't the faintest damned idea where you are going to put the subs if you can't use the side holes OR the 5th-point sub hole. Heck - many FIA approved seats don't even HAVE that extra hole.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wasn't clear, obviously.

There is NO such thing - so far as I have seen in 20 years of doing this stuff - as a seat that has special holes for a 6-pt harness. Even if you don't have the loop/D-ring type subs, run them through the side holes of the seat so you sit on them. They go under your thighs while the laps essentially go over them. The net result is a fit like a climbing harness, with loops around your femurs and quads.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought they went through the hole in the bottom of the seat. I learned something today (quite a feat considering the amount of beer I drank watching Paul Tracy drive today).

 

Sorry Kirk, I understand now what you meant in your first post. I'm just going by what the drawings on the manufacturer's posts are saying. Here, I'll show you:


See, the sub straps go straight down through the seat and attach at the floor, 8 to 12 inches apart, and supposedly at approximately 20 degrees behind the plane of the back. That's what's confusing me.

 

it's confusing me too as I had been thinking about this, great thread.

I'll throw another variable here, how does the position of the seat affect the angles of the body and harnesses in an accident? For example, having the seat positioned in the rails at full upright setting as opposed to the seat reclined. I've heard the advantages and disadvantages from racers, what's the take of people here?

 

Thanks for the pic, Darren. I have NO idea how that's supposed to work in the real world.

K

EDIT - I worked with a safety equipment company for several years so I like to think that I have a clue. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

I think I'll actually go ask the manufacturer's how they expect me to install them. Since Simpson says don't use them with a 5-point seat, I'll find out what exactly they want me to use them with. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evil Drew M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A 4-point harness is not safe for anything - not even HPDE.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I get tired of reading this. The above statement is not true, but gets thrown around all the time, and tends to mislead people who read it. Schroth makes several 3 and 4 point harnesses that ARE safe. They even make a Profi II competition harness that is designed to be used as a 4 point harness in non race seat applications (seats with no sub belt hole). Contrary to popular belief, using a 5/6 point harness in a seat that doesn't have a sub belt hole, by running it over the front of the seat is NOT correct. That should be pointed out instead of saying "A 4-point harness is not safe for anything - not even HPDE" everytime this topic comes up.

 

still not on the original post's topic..... I'm almost 100% that NASA doesn't allow 4 point harnesses at all. 5 point minimum. Someone verify this. whether a 4point is better than a stock 3 point harness is another topic altogether. it definitely holds you in tighter.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sol2nr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm almost 100% that NASA doesn't allow 4 point harnesses at all. 5 point minimum. </TD></TR></TABLE>

For racing, yes.

Not for DE.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

For racing, yes.

Not for DE.</TD></TR></TABLE>

NASA does not allow 4pt Harnesses even for HPDEs. The rules are the same for racing and HPDEs apart from the fact that you can use the stock seatbelts for HPDEs and the harnesses used for HPDE do not have to follow the race expiration rule.

So, HPDE: stock, 5 or 6 point (see rules, etc)
Racing: 5 or 6 point

 

The rules have changed then. THanks matt.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think I'll actually go ask the manufacturer's how they expect me to install them. Since Simpson says don't use them with a 5-point seat, I'll find out what exactly they want me to use them with. I'll let you know what I find out. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Someone from the IT.com board sent me a copy of the Willans instructions like came with my harness - and that I didn't read. They illustrate the same kind of conundrum, with the V-type crotch straps running through the single seat hole in front. I can't reconcile for myself how that doesn't make them essentially identical to a single crotch belt but that's beside the point...

What really matters is that NOBODY should follow my a advice on this matter. It is obviously at odds with what the manufacturers are saying so you absolutely must follow their recommendations and write off anything that comes from me as outdated news.

K