Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you.....
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Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you.....
From http://www.autoweek.com/cat_co...12566
Warranty Woes: Whether abuse or autocrossing, most automakers are not covering it
By ANDREW LUU
"When it hits the track, all bets are off," says Bob Carlson, Porsche Cars of North America spokesman. (Photo by AP/Wide World Photos)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MICHAEL MILLER DIDN’T know it, but the drivetrain warranty was already void on his son’s new Mitsubishi Evolution before he even took the car in for service to his local Salt Lake City dealership.
Unbeknownst to Miller, Mitsubishi placed a lifetime warranty restriction on the engine, clutch and transmission in Miller’s Evo because the company discovered the car had been entered in a Sports Car Club of America autocross event a month earlier.
Miller said that about two weeks after entering the Evo in the SCCA event he heard bad noises emanating from the engine bay and took the car in for service. “The dealer performed a vehicle service inquiry and I was told there was a restriction placed on my file,” Miller says.
Bottom line: After entering the car in one SCCA event, Miller was left with a $7,000 bill for repairing two failed connecting rods and a blown turbocharger.
“Problems related to racing or modifications are not covered under warranty,” says Mitsubishi spokeswoman Janis Little. “Autocrossing, or timed competition, is classified under the warranty terms as racing. It’s difficult for us to know if you’re out there racing, but if there is evidence of racing damage, we’re going to look into it and you may have warranty restrictions placed on certain parts of the vehicle.”
Most owners recognize that part of the cost of going racing means footing the repair bill when something goes awry. Manufacturer warranties and owner manuals typically specify that harsh use, abuse, non-factory modifications and racing can void all or part of a vehicle’s warranty intended to cover defects in materials or workmanship. Miller’s case, however, raises questions about how the company discovered his autocross involvement.
The buzz in online communities suggests Mitsubishi is cross matching names from its owner database with SCCA autocross results. Those who turn up on both lists are notified that their vehicle warranties are void, the online chatter claims. Miller says Mitsubishi wasn’t clear on how it learned of his autocrossing.
Mitsubishi adamantly denies that it uses automated web search systems to look for Evolutions involved in race events. “We don’t have people out there searching websites for names,” says Little.
No matter how racing involvement comes to the attention of an automaker, companies steadfastly stand by their right to limit warranty coverage—even if the cars they sell are clearly built for speed and marketed with flashy ads and brochures that promote enthusiastic driving. Most automakers say the same thing: Racing, track use, competition and other abuses aren’t covered.
“When it hits the track, all bets are off,” says Bob Carlson, Porsche Cars of North America spokesman.
For instance, even though Subaru pops for a one-year SCCA membership for every interested WRX buyer, and in its marketing materials appears to encourage owners to enter their cars in autocross events, the company says autocrossing is racing and racing can void warranty coverage. The WRX/SCCA application form says the SCCA “looks forward to helping you fully experience the benefits of owning this car.” But the form also includes a disclaimer that Subaru’s warranty excludes “damage or failure resulting from participation in competition or racing events.”
“If the damage looks to be racing related, you’re not going to be covered,” says Subaru spokeswoman Larkin Hill. “We don’t want to punish the person who goes out once in a while and autocrosses—and that shouldn’t cause any problems with the car anyway. However, autocross is considered competition and the warranty does not cover abusive driving or competition. If you’re out there racing every weekend, you can’t expect us to fund it.”
You’ll hear the same story at DaimlerChrysler Street and Racing Technology, where they make the Dodge SRT-4, the Viper-powered Ram SRT-10 and the supercharged Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6. “Technically, racing damage is not covered under warranty,” says SRT spokesman Dan Bodene. “If a guy autocrosses, submits a problem for warranty and the dealer suspects it is racing related, he’s going to huddle with our technicians to find out. If it is, our dealers are not obligated to cover it under warranty.”
Chevrolet lures young buyers with the performance promise of its 2005 supercharged Cobalt SS, but the owner’s manual clearly states the warranty does not cover alterations and misuse.
“Under the misuse heading, such things like running over curbs, improper loading and competition or racing are spelled out specifically,” says Chevy spokesman Mike Stoller. “If there’s a car coming into the dealer that has been racing and that results in damage, and it’s something that is probable or obvious, that would not be something we would be compelled to cover.”
Internal investigations aren’t limited to auto-crossing, but cover any activity deemed outside normal use, such as track days and plain old aggressive driving.
“If a guy’s constantly lighting up the tires on the street, that’s not normal wear and tear,” says Chrysler’s Bodene.
Adds Mitsubishi’s Little: “You’re not going to get black-flagged just for entering an auto-cross, but if something happens we want people to be reasonable and responsible for their own actions. If you go once in a while, just like if you drive hard on the street, who’s going to really know? But if you’re coming in two or three times to replace a blown clutch, we know you’re probably testing your car’s 0-to-60 time.”
But what about all those manufacturer- and dealer-sponsored “racing” events—track days, club meets and performance driving programs that seem to encourage owners to drive competitively?
The big difference, companies note, is that manufacturer-sponsored driving programs such as Mazda’s Rev It Up or the Porsche Driving Experience provide cars and instruction, and no owner vehicles are permitted.
One rare exception is track day events organized, sponsored and sanctioned by the national Ford SVT Owners’ Association and local Ford/SVT dealers. Owners bring their cars, and the association and participating dealers agree to cover any mechanical failures brought on by normal track use.
“Owners can participate in the instructional days without automatically voiding their warranties,” says Ford Performance Vehicles spokesman Alan Hall. “Obviously if they abuse it [the car] on the track, or there’s a part that breaks due to aggressive driving, that will not be covered under warranty. But your warranty will not be voided across the board by just participating in that event. We don’t automatically void a warranty unless above-normal abuse is shown on a vehicle.”
Warranty Woes: Whether abuse or autocrossing, most automakers are not covering it
By ANDREW LUU
"When it hits the track, all bets are off," says Bob Carlson, Porsche Cars of North America spokesman. (Photo by AP/Wide World Photos)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MICHAEL MILLER DIDN’T know it, but the drivetrain warranty was already void on his son’s new Mitsubishi Evolution before he even took the car in for service to his local Salt Lake City dealership.
Unbeknownst to Miller, Mitsubishi placed a lifetime warranty restriction on the engine, clutch and transmission in Miller’s Evo because the company discovered the car had been entered in a Sports Car Club of America autocross event a month earlier.
Miller said that about two weeks after entering the Evo in the SCCA event he heard bad noises emanating from the engine bay and took the car in for service. “The dealer performed a vehicle service inquiry and I was told there was a restriction placed on my file,” Miller says.
Bottom line: After entering the car in one SCCA event, Miller was left with a $7,000 bill for repairing two failed connecting rods and a blown turbocharger.
“Problems related to racing or modifications are not covered under warranty,” says Mitsubishi spokeswoman Janis Little. “Autocrossing, or timed competition, is classified under the warranty terms as racing. It’s difficult for us to know if you’re out there racing, but if there is evidence of racing damage, we’re going to look into it and you may have warranty restrictions placed on certain parts of the vehicle.”
Most owners recognize that part of the cost of going racing means footing the repair bill when something goes awry. Manufacturer warranties and owner manuals typically specify that harsh use, abuse, non-factory modifications and racing can void all or part of a vehicle’s warranty intended to cover defects in materials or workmanship. Miller’s case, however, raises questions about how the company discovered his autocross involvement.
The buzz in online communities suggests Mitsubishi is cross matching names from its owner database with SCCA autocross results. Those who turn up on both lists are notified that their vehicle warranties are void, the online chatter claims. Miller says Mitsubishi wasn’t clear on how it learned of his autocrossing.
Mitsubishi adamantly denies that it uses automated web search systems to look for Evolutions involved in race events. “We don’t have people out there searching websites for names,” says Little.
No matter how racing involvement comes to the attention of an automaker, companies steadfastly stand by their right to limit warranty coverage—even if the cars they sell are clearly built for speed and marketed with flashy ads and brochures that promote enthusiastic driving. Most automakers say the same thing: Racing, track use, competition and other abuses aren’t covered.
“When it hits the track, all bets are off,” says Bob Carlson, Porsche Cars of North America spokesman.
For instance, even though Subaru pops for a one-year SCCA membership for every interested WRX buyer, and in its marketing materials appears to encourage owners to enter their cars in autocross events, the company says autocrossing is racing and racing can void warranty coverage. The WRX/SCCA application form says the SCCA “looks forward to helping you fully experience the benefits of owning this car.” But the form also includes a disclaimer that Subaru’s warranty excludes “damage or failure resulting from participation in competition or racing events.”
“If the damage looks to be racing related, you’re not going to be covered,” says Subaru spokeswoman Larkin Hill. “We don’t want to punish the person who goes out once in a while and autocrosses—and that shouldn’t cause any problems with the car anyway. However, autocross is considered competition and the warranty does not cover abusive driving or competition. If you’re out there racing every weekend, you can’t expect us to fund it.”
You’ll hear the same story at DaimlerChrysler Street and Racing Technology, where they make the Dodge SRT-4, the Viper-powered Ram SRT-10 and the supercharged Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6. “Technically, racing damage is not covered under warranty,” says SRT spokesman Dan Bodene. “If a guy autocrosses, submits a problem for warranty and the dealer suspects it is racing related, he’s going to huddle with our technicians to find out. If it is, our dealers are not obligated to cover it under warranty.”
Chevrolet lures young buyers with the performance promise of its 2005 supercharged Cobalt SS, but the owner’s manual clearly states the warranty does not cover alterations and misuse.
“Under the misuse heading, such things like running over curbs, improper loading and competition or racing are spelled out specifically,” says Chevy spokesman Mike Stoller. “If there’s a car coming into the dealer that has been racing and that results in damage, and it’s something that is probable or obvious, that would not be something we would be compelled to cover.”
Internal investigations aren’t limited to auto-crossing, but cover any activity deemed outside normal use, such as track days and plain old aggressive driving.
“If a guy’s constantly lighting up the tires on the street, that’s not normal wear and tear,” says Chrysler’s Bodene.
Adds Mitsubishi’s Little: “You’re not going to get black-flagged just for entering an auto-cross, but if something happens we want people to be reasonable and responsible for their own actions. If you go once in a while, just like if you drive hard on the street, who’s going to really know? But if you’re coming in two or three times to replace a blown clutch, we know you’re probably testing your car’s 0-to-60 time.”
But what about all those manufacturer- and dealer-sponsored “racing” events—track days, club meets and performance driving programs that seem to encourage owners to drive competitively?
The big difference, companies note, is that manufacturer-sponsored driving programs such as Mazda’s Rev It Up or the Porsche Driving Experience provide cars and instruction, and no owner vehicles are permitted.
One rare exception is track day events organized, sponsored and sanctioned by the national Ford SVT Owners’ Association and local Ford/SVT dealers. Owners bring their cars, and the association and participating dealers agree to cover any mechanical failures brought on by normal track use.
“Owners can participate in the instructional days without automatically voiding their warranties,” says Ford Performance Vehicles spokesman Alan Hall. “Obviously if they abuse it [the car] on the track, or there’s a part that breaks due to aggressive driving, that will not be covered under warranty. But your warranty will not be voided across the board by just participating in that event. We don’t automatically void a warranty unless above-normal abuse is shown on a vehicle.”
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,035
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Big Phat R)
I can't figure out why any responsible individual would go through life assuming that the manufacturer of his or her automobile should pay for problems arising from racing or track use.
I'll replace my front bearings and hubs every season because I know that racing wears them the hell out. Duh.
It's RACING, people! Manufacturers sell cars for TRANSPORTATION purposes. This issue needs to go away and people need to grow up.
K
I'll replace my front bearings and hubs every season because I know that racing wears them the hell out. Duh.
It's RACING, people! Manufacturers sell cars for TRANSPORTATION purposes. This issue needs to go away and people need to grow up.
K
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
From: Warren, RI, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's RACING, people! Manufacturers sell cars for TRANSPORTATION purposes. This issue needs to go away and people need to grow up.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just to play devils advocate here...
It's an autox, not a track event. I don't see anything happening in an autox that should be considered abusive. Considering how Mitsu marketed and tested (extensively on the Nurburgring) the car, autox shouldn't void your warranty.
No biggie for me, I'll just never buy one. If a company can't make a performance oriented car, and then back it up when it's driven in a manner to which it was designed and built, they can get their money from some other sod.
I can understand voiding a warranty claim for track use, but autox? Come on, I can work my car just as hard on on/off ramps (I don't, but I could) and that kind of behavior would be covered.
It's RACING, people! Manufacturers sell cars for TRANSPORTATION purposes. This issue needs to go away and people need to grow up.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just to play devils advocate here...
It's an autox, not a track event. I don't see anything happening in an autox that should be considered abusive. Considering how Mitsu marketed and tested (extensively on the Nurburgring) the car, autox shouldn't void your warranty.
No biggie for me, I'll just never buy one. If a company can't make a performance oriented car, and then back it up when it's driven in a manner to which it was designed and built, they can get their money from some other sod.
I can understand voiding a warranty claim for track use, but autox? Come on, I can work my car just as hard on on/off ramps (I don't, but I could) and that kind of behavior would be covered.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,144
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From: Union, KY, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (rapid_roy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rapid_roy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's an autox, not a track event. I don't see anything happening in an autox that should be considered abusive.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Then maybe you should open your eyes and ears. Have you ever been to an autocross where people don't run cars well past redline to likely rev limiters, generate far more cornering force than they do on the street, shift very aggressively, spin and wear tires at a vastly premature rate, etc.? Neither have I. This thread ran a long course a few weeks ago and a lot was said. Regardless of however tight or liberal you define "abusive", most everyone will agree that a timed event like an autocross puts much more stress and strain on a car than the street use that the manufacturer's warranty is designed to protect against.
I did notice a good Letter to the Editor of either AutoWeek or another major car mag after this or a similar article. The letter was from a guy who had been a Mopar car salesman back in the '60s and '70s back in the heyday of the big Hemi muscle cars. He said every Monday morning there were regularly several cars with blown up engines sitting waiting for service under warranty. They kept a water spray bottle handy and quickly misted all of the outside windows and the shoe polish or wax crayon numbers from the local drag strip would show right up testifying that it had been used for weekend activities above and beyond the call of duty. Dealers and manufacturers needing to protect themselves from bogus warranty claims by weekend warriors is nothing new.
It's an autox, not a track event. I don't see anything happening in an autox that should be considered abusive.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Then maybe you should open your eyes and ears. Have you ever been to an autocross where people don't run cars well past redline to likely rev limiters, generate far more cornering force than they do on the street, shift very aggressively, spin and wear tires at a vastly premature rate, etc.? Neither have I. This thread ran a long course a few weeks ago and a lot was said. Regardless of however tight or liberal you define "abusive", most everyone will agree that a timed event like an autocross puts much more stress and strain on a car than the street use that the manufacturer's warranty is designed to protect against.
I did notice a good Letter to the Editor of either AutoWeek or another major car mag after this or a similar article. The letter was from a guy who had been a Mopar car salesman back in the '60s and '70s back in the heyday of the big Hemi muscle cars. He said every Monday morning there were regularly several cars with blown up engines sitting waiting for service under warranty. They kept a water spray bottle handy and quickly misted all of the outside windows and the shoe polish or wax crayon numbers from the local drag strip would show right up testifying that it had been used for weekend activities above and beyond the call of duty. Dealers and manufacturers needing to protect themselves from bogus warranty claims by weekend warriors is nothing new.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,476
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Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (CRX Lee)
So what happens when you own two cars..
one for the track and one for the road..
will they automatically void your warrenty on the the road car if you go to an autocross with track car..
also how can they base their void on a 3rd parties website?
It sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
I do agree though.. if you are racing your car.. you should pay for the repairs, and I have.
But for the manufacturer to scour the website to void your warrenty ... thats wrong.
one for the track and one for the road..
will they automatically void your warrenty on the the road car if you go to an autocross with track car..
also how can they base their void on a 3rd parties website?
It sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
I do agree though.. if you are racing your car.. you should pay for the repairs, and I have.
But for the manufacturer to scour the website to void your warrenty ... thats wrong.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
From: Warren, RI, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (CRX Lee)
Still playing the advocate here, so don't take this as an attack.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dealers and manufacturers needing to protect themselves from bogus warranty claims by weekend warriors is nothing new.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I whole heartedly agree, but the key is abuse. Drag racing is much more abusive than autox though, I don't think that point can be contested. I would certainly agree that it would be wear and tear beyond normal street driving, particularly on bearings and bushings. But an EVO? It just makes me question how much Mitsu really cares about making a performance car.
BMW drivers in bmwcca aren't worried, Porsche owners don't care, so why is Mitsu being so dickish about it? Because they sell more cars? Because they have more to lose? Because their margin per unit is lower so they can't waste money on stuff like this? If so, then they need to adjust their equations and make those changes to reflect in the price of the car. A case by case basis obviously is to much for them to deal with, which is unfortunate as I would love to own an EVO, but when the manufacturer doesn't even offer me a shred of backing (or consideration if something goes wrong), **** 'em.
Maybe they just don't give a flying **** about the autox/HPDE folks. Fine. I will stick to out of warranty cars that I can fix myself, and drive in a manner that ensures it will continue to run weekend after weekend. There's a difference between autox and abusive autox but Mitsu doesn't seem to think so, and for that I shall never own one.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dealers and manufacturers needing to protect themselves from bogus warranty claims by weekend warriors is nothing new.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I whole heartedly agree, but the key is abuse. Drag racing is much more abusive than autox though, I don't think that point can be contested. I would certainly agree that it would be wear and tear beyond normal street driving, particularly on bearings and bushings. But an EVO? It just makes me question how much Mitsu really cares about making a performance car.
BMW drivers in bmwcca aren't worried, Porsche owners don't care, so why is Mitsu being so dickish about it? Because they sell more cars? Because they have more to lose? Because their margin per unit is lower so they can't waste money on stuff like this? If so, then they need to adjust their equations and make those changes to reflect in the price of the car. A case by case basis obviously is to much for them to deal with, which is unfortunate as I would love to own an EVO, but when the manufacturer doesn't even offer me a shred of backing (or consideration if something goes wrong), **** 'em.
Maybe they just don't give a flying **** about the autox/HPDE folks. Fine. I will stick to out of warranty cars that I can fix myself, and drive in a manner that ensures it will continue to run weekend after weekend. There's a difference between autox and abusive autox but Mitsu doesn't seem to think so, and for that I shall never own one.
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Joined: Feb 2002
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From: chicago, il
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (rapid_roy)
what if you ly about you name, take the plates off your car, block the vin number, washed your card well and steel wool the glass. do you think they would find out. there's no proof , the only proof they probably say is you seem to be abusing your car. their words against yours.
i had a similiar situation once, when i had my 00 civic si. it grinded third gear bad in higher rpm, as we know now honda have a bulletin on that. well they didn't before. i brought my car in for service. for the grind. next day they said to pick it up that the problem didn't exist. i was like no it does have a problem. i took the service manager for a ride. actually he drove. i told him to wind up second gear til redline and shift. he did it 10 times, 8 outta ten it grinded. what he told me was funny to my ears. you shouldn't be revving it that high. i told him if the car wasn't meant to be rev that high then honda wouldn't have put it that high. just fix the problem and don't call me til it's done. and if you do have a problem with fixing it just call me and i'll call honda and find out why i can't shift my car at 8000 rpm. manager OWNED .well i got it fixed and sold the car a year ago.
i had a similiar situation once, when i had my 00 civic si. it grinded third gear bad in higher rpm, as we know now honda have a bulletin on that. well they didn't before. i brought my car in for service. for the grind. next day they said to pick it up that the problem didn't exist. i was like no it does have a problem. i took the service manager for a ride. actually he drove. i told him to wind up second gear til redline and shift. he did it 10 times, 8 outta ten it grinded. what he told me was funny to my ears. you shouldn't be revving it that high. i told him if the car wasn't meant to be rev that high then honda wouldn't have put it that high. just fix the problem and don't call me til it's done. and if you do have a problem with fixing it just call me and i'll call honda and find out why i can't shift my car at 8000 rpm. manager OWNED .well i got it fixed and sold the car a year ago.
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From: Union, KY, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (rapid_roy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rapid_roy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
BMW drivers in bmwcca aren't worried, Porsche owners don't care, so why is Mitsu being so dickish about it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Neither the BMW or Porsche are going to be covered under warranty for autocross, BMWCCA events, etc. if they have any expectation that it was used for it either. What I thought that AutoWeek made pretty clear is that no manufacturer would cover warranty for these situations, just that Mitsubishi has gotten tne recent ink and heat for for it.
BMW drivers in bmwcca aren't worried, Porsche owners don't care, so why is Mitsu being so dickish about it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Neither the BMW or Porsche are going to be covered under warranty for autocross, BMWCCA events, etc. if they have any expectation that it was used for it either. What I thought that AutoWeek made pretty clear is that no manufacturer would cover warranty for these situations, just that Mitsubishi has gotten tne recent ink and heat for for it.
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (tvrsir)
This subject really bothers me, especially with the image (and product for that matter) that major automakers are putting out there.
"Performance" cars are being introduced into the market by nearly every single major auto manufacturer. I find it absolutely absurd that they have so little confidence in their product to withstand the minor abuse that autocross provides on a car. Speaking for my region, a typical day at the auto-x will yield you maybe 5 or 6 runs that last anywhere between 30-70 seconds. So that's what, 3-6 minutes of "hard driving" on the car one or two weekends a month in the summer?
I cannot speak for every car, but I know damn well that my GSR has taken all that I can throw at it. 88,000 miles and counting. Which includes all of the following (daily driving, auto-x, and HPDE) The car, like many other DC2's in the same situation, has held up flawlessly. Still running the OEM clutch, bearings, syncro's, piston rings, etc.
Who knows what these Evo owners are doing as far as break-in periods though. But I do know that if Mitsubishi is going to market this "supercar" that they better build the car to back it up. People who buy a 300hp 300lbft car are not interested in how that performs on paper, they are going to use that power, and probably in a harsh manner.
I don't care how hard you are ragging on an Evo at an auto-x, there is no way that you should be blowing turbo's.
I know that automakers are also running a business, and are trying to make money, but come on, make a car that stands behind what you market it as.
I guess I'll be more careful when I get a new car in the future about what I do with it, because warrenties are good
Jon
"Performance" cars are being introduced into the market by nearly every single major auto manufacturer. I find it absolutely absurd that they have so little confidence in their product to withstand the minor abuse that autocross provides on a car. Speaking for my region, a typical day at the auto-x will yield you maybe 5 or 6 runs that last anywhere between 30-70 seconds. So that's what, 3-6 minutes of "hard driving" on the car one or two weekends a month in the summer?
I cannot speak for every car, but I know damn well that my GSR has taken all that I can throw at it. 88,000 miles and counting. Which includes all of the following (daily driving, auto-x, and HPDE) The car, like many other DC2's in the same situation, has held up flawlessly. Still running the OEM clutch, bearings, syncro's, piston rings, etc.
Who knows what these Evo owners are doing as far as break-in periods though. But I do know that if Mitsubishi is going to market this "supercar" that they better build the car to back it up. People who buy a 300hp 300lbft car are not interested in how that performs on paper, they are going to use that power, and probably in a harsh manner.
I don't care how hard you are ragging on an Evo at an auto-x, there is no way that you should be blowing turbo's.
I know that automakers are also running a business, and are trying to make money, but come on, make a car that stands behind what you market it as.
I guess I'll be more careful when I get a new car in the future about what I do with it, because warrenties are good
Jon
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From: AWFUL autocrosser from, RI
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Big Phat R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Miller said that about two weeks after entering the Evo in the SCCA event he heard bad noises emanating from the engine bay and took the car in for service. “The dealer performed a vehicle service inquiry and I was told there was a restriction placed on my file,” Miller says.
Bottom line: After entering the car in one SCCA event, Miller was left with a $7,000 bill for repairing two failed connecting rods and a blown turbocharger.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd like to know how old this dude's son is and what the f$$K he did to do all that damage to that car.
Bottom line: After entering the car in one SCCA event, Miller was left with a $7,000 bill for repairing two failed connecting rods and a blown turbocharger.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd like to know how old this dude's son is and what the f$$K he did to do all that damage to that car.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 4,097
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From: Get Firefox, CA, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (tnord)
I read parts of the other thread.
another problem is that with cars like porsche or the evo, where are you going to go drive it and have fun?
pretty much anytime you want to have fun, like hit the top of 3rd gear you have most likely gone past the speed limit.
its like having your parents give you a hot stripper for your 16th birthday. they get you a limo and hotel room for the night, but the rule is you can only kiss her on the cheak or maybe on the lips but no tongue.
whats the point of it?
you could get another hotel room or another limo where you know they wont be watching. but it is prolly safer to be in a nicer hotel room (like the track) and not be put in harms way.
it just doenst make sense to sell a product that comes with a warranty but it really cant be used for what it is intended for. porsche doesnt tune their cars on the nurburing for no reason at all. it because they are designed to be driven at the limit.
its like the new porsche gt. there is no way you can get with 7/10 of that cars over all limit on the street. maybe you could brake from 150 to 80 for fun. otherwise just driving from 1st to middle of 3rd gear isnt much fun
another problem is that with cars like porsche or the evo, where are you going to go drive it and have fun?
pretty much anytime you want to have fun, like hit the top of 3rd gear you have most likely gone past the speed limit.
its like having your parents give you a hot stripper for your 16th birthday. they get you a limo and hotel room for the night, but the rule is you can only kiss her on the cheak or maybe on the lips but no tongue.
whats the point of it?
you could get another hotel room or another limo where you know they wont be watching. but it is prolly safer to be in a nicer hotel room (like the track) and not be put in harms way.
it just doenst make sense to sell a product that comes with a warranty but it really cant be used for what it is intended for. porsche doesnt tune their cars on the nurburing for no reason at all. it because they are designed to be driven at the limit.
its like the new porsche gt. there is no way you can get with 7/10 of that cars over all limit on the street. maybe you could brake from 150 to 80 for fun. otherwise just driving from 1st to middle of 3rd gear isnt much fun
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
From: Crofton, Md, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Crazydave)
Don't forget about the car's ECU telling. I know some cars ECU's can store a history of driving inputs, and when plugged up yo a diagnostic machine, the tech can see a date, time, and repeated pattern of full throttle and redline shifts. (aka drag racing/autocross) Do yourself a favor and buy a seperate ECU for racing purposes and switch accordingly.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,472
Likes: 0
From: HP, NC, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (1slow_si)
The price of every car has some amount of money figured into its cost to cover warranty exposure. It may be as little as $100 per car on Hondas 
. If the manufacturer voids your warranty for Auto-x, they should at least refund that money.
. If the manufacturer voids your warranty for Auto-x, they should at least refund that money.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,768
Likes: 2
From: Kings Mt., NC
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Track rat)
How do they know I drove *my* Evo??? Let's say I fly out to San Diego to do a tour and drive one just like mine and Mitsubishi voids the warranty on *my* car??
What if I don't auto-x but instead do jackased stuff on the street (like canyun shizzle) and blow my engine up?? Is that covered? How is that different?
I see lawsuits
Modified by MaddMatt at 8:11 AM 7/22/2004
What if I don't auto-x but instead do jackased stuff on the street (like canyun shizzle) and blow my engine up?? Is that covered? How is that different?
I see lawsuits
Modified by MaddMatt at 8:11 AM 7/22/2004
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
From: Philly, Pa, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Big Phat R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by "the article" »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> “We don’t want to punish the person who goes out once in a while and autocrosses—and that shouldn’t cause any problems with the car anyway. However, autocross is considered competition and the warranty does not cover abusive driving or competition. If you’re out there racing every weekend, you can’t expect us to fund it.”</TD></TR></TABLE>
That policy sounds completely sensible to me.
The buzz is that Mitsubishi is being much more aggressive about it.. probably because they are about to go under and so upper level bean counters are pushing the issue as a way to save money? (just wild, ignorant speculation... although I've heard from many sources about Mitsubishi's questionable future)
If you manufacture, market, and sell a sports car, I think you should expect and plan for people to use it for some sports use... just as a basketball shoe shoud be expected to handle some use during amateur level basketball games.
Some people, however, seem to expect to play an entire season or two of professional basketball and then expect the shoe company to replace their shoes for free when they fall apart. Other people, however, seem to say that if the shoe has ever "set foot" on a basketball court at all, they'll have nothing to do with quality problems. Both extremes are off-base, in my view.
I do like Mazda's approach. If you race your Mazda, they may not honor claims on certain things, but you can join Mazda Competition Parts and get the (racing related) parts for a nice discount!
That policy sounds completely sensible to me.
The buzz is that Mitsubishi is being much more aggressive about it.. probably because they are about to go under and so upper level bean counters are pushing the issue as a way to save money? (just wild, ignorant speculation... although I've heard from many sources about Mitsubishi's questionable future)
If you manufacture, market, and sell a sports car, I think you should expect and plan for people to use it for some sports use... just as a basketball shoe shoud be expected to handle some use during amateur level basketball games.
Some people, however, seem to expect to play an entire season or two of professional basketball and then expect the shoe company to replace their shoes for free when they fall apart. Other people, however, seem to say that if the shoe has ever "set foot" on a basketball court at all, they'll have nothing to do with quality problems. Both extremes are off-base, in my view.
I do like Mazda's approach. If you race your Mazda, they may not honor claims on certain things, but you can join Mazda Competition Parts and get the (racing related) parts for a nice discount!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 0
From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Bob-DC2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bob-DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...another problem is that with cars like porsche or the evo, where are you going to go drive it and have fun? ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Precisely why REAL racers drive boring street cars. Cars on public roads are - again - transportation. Cars on tracks are fun. I will go to my grave believing that people who drive really high-performance cars on US streets are 99% posers and 1% drivers.
K
Precisely why REAL racers drive boring street cars. Cars on public roads are - again - transportation. Cars on tracks are fun. I will go to my grave believing that people who drive really high-performance cars on US streets are 99% posers and 1% drivers.
K
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: (DAsix)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DAsix »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dont use your real name for racing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Captain Awesome
2004 Mitsubishi Evo
A Stock
About driving performance cars on the street, I think "sports cars" are much more enjoyable to drive even when driving slow. Crappy steering, soft handling, etc. all make even putting around town more of a chore than it has to be. Of course the poseur factor does come into play somewhere, but I'll admit I like nice looking cars.
Ideally, I would only drive on the track and have a chaffeur take me to the grocery store.
Captain Awesome
2004 Mitsubishi Evo
A Stock
About driving performance cars on the street, I think "sports cars" are much more enjoyable to drive even when driving slow. Crappy steering, soft handling, etc. all make even putting around town more of a chore than it has to be. Of course the poseur factor does come into play somewhere, but I'll admit I like nice looking cars.
Ideally, I would only drive on the track and have a chaffeur take me to the grocery store.
Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,161
Likes: 0
From: Merrimack,, NH, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Big Phat R)
I just CAN'T believe we're going to beat this poor *totally dead* horse AGAIN!!!
r2x ~ who's views are well known on this matter.
r2x ~ who's views are well known on this matter.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,682
Likes: 0
From: Middleburg Heights, OH
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Precisely why REAL racers drive boring street cars. Cars on public roads are - again - transportation. Cars on tracks are fun. I will go to my grave believing that people who drive really high-performance cars on US streets are 99% posers and 1% drivers.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly. So many Champ Car, IRL, NASCAR, etc. drivers just have boring SUVs or whatever for personal vehicles, because after racing, driving on the street in a "fast" car isn't a big deal.
I know if I had the money to, I'd get my '83 Civic running again. 64 hp yes, but it did get 40-50 MPG, even without a 5th gear on the highway. Fortunately my MR2 does everything well except hold multiple passengers.
Precisely why REAL racers drive boring street cars. Cars on public roads are - again - transportation. Cars on tracks are fun. I will go to my grave believing that people who drive really high-performance cars on US streets are 99% posers and 1% drivers.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly. So many Champ Car, IRL, NASCAR, etc. drivers just have boring SUVs or whatever for personal vehicles, because after racing, driving on the street in a "fast" car isn't a big deal.
I know if I had the money to, I'd get my '83 Civic running again. 64 hp yes, but it did get 40-50 MPG, even without a 5th gear on the highway. Fortunately my MR2 does everything well except hold multiple passengers.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
From: Dayton, Ohio, USA
Re: Autocrossers beware: Big Brother is watching you..... (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Precisely why REAL racers drive boring street cars. Cars on public roads are - again - transportation. Cars on tracks are fun. I will go to my grave believing that people who drive really high-performance cars on US streets are 99% posers and 1% drivers.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please dont exuse the fact that most of us cant afford a "fast/nice/etc" second car. Most/Some of us barely get by.
Precisely why REAL racers drive boring street cars. Cars on public roads are - again - transportation. Cars on tracks are fun. I will go to my grave believing that people who drive really high-performance cars on US streets are 99% posers and 1% drivers.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please dont exuse the fact that most of us cant afford a "fast/nice/etc" second car. Most/Some of us barely get by.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 4,364
Likes: 0
From: phoenix, az, usa
Man this seems to be a major issue, but once again warranty's are just something there that seems nice in the beginning when you sign, then turn into something really ugly down the line.
As for haveing 15yr old car and not having to worry, try having a 2 year old car with no warranty. Welcome to the club!!
As for haveing 15yr old car and not having to worry, try having a 2 year old car with no warranty.
Welcome to the club!!