I have been watching my Option videos a little more closely recently, and on the HIGH horsepower civics they are running HUGE tires in front, one EG had 255/45-16, another car had like 225/50-16's on the FRONT WITHOUT any fender flares! And most of the high powered(turbo) FWD cars are running 15's in the rear. I assume to make the *** end want to swing out to make the handling of the car more neutral (less prone to understeer.)

I hope to start a discussion about the different size wheels they run on the front and rear..... and HOW THE HELL DO THEY FIT THOSE HUGE TIRES ON 16's IN THE FRONT!???? I am rubbing w/ my 215/45-16 Azenis and I am not even that low!

 

The fenders might not look flared, but they're probably either 'pulled' or they're subtle aftermarket wide fenders. I know for the 240SX we can get wide fenders from Japan that, when painted, look completely stock, but would let me fit up to something like a 255 up front within the bodywork.

 

On the road race ITR that I pit crew for we run 235/45/17 all around w/o fender flares. Removal of fender liners and enough negative camber helps them fit.

As long as you think outside the box about fenders you can fit almost anything.

 

For some reason... the ricer/ex-worked-on-jeeps person in me... wants some big beefy black abs screw in fender flares. Trim the stock fenders and bolt some on

Then again maybe not, then it would be new wheel/tire time... more work to steer.... but oh the grip!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AKADriver &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The fenders might not look flared, but they're probably either 'pulled' or they're subtle aftermarket wide fenders. I know for the 240SX we can get wide fenders from Japan that, when painted, look completely stock, but would let me fit up to something like a 255 up front within the bodywork.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We fit 275/40/17's up front w/ stock, pulled bodywork on an S14.

 

Were the cars tube chasis?

 

From the research I've done, unless they are GroupN cars (which must remain close to stock in some ways), 16"+ wheel sizes are the norm on Civics/tegs.

This is why I always say that there is more to life than a 15" wheel for those cars.

 

From what I read that is pretty common.

They have a different approach to changing the handling balance than us.

We tend to stiffen up the rear spring rates relative to the front, which is more of a domestic method.

They focus more on staggering tire/rim sizes, alignment, etc. Ever notice that (almost?) all the JDM springs have stiffer front than rear?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From what I read that is pretty common.

They have a different approach to changing the handling balance than us.

We tend to stiffen up the rear spring rates relative to the front, which is more of a domestic method.

They focus more on staggering tire/rim sizes, alignment, etc. Ever notice that (almost?) all the JDM springs have stiffer front than rear?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm currently in process with this format of suspension setup. After having ridden in a car with a front bias spring rate... I loved the turn in. Next step for me is to stagger tires and then start dialing in camber/toe settings.

 

they're known as 'grip' drivers. great way to reduce understeer for sure, fatty stickies in the front as opposed to the rear. setup is crucial and it's always about finding the right balance of the car. but for street driven cars, like my civic, i think i'll just try a fatty sway

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I'm currently in process with this format of suspension setup. After having ridden in a car with a front bias spring rate... I loved the turn in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You loved the turn in? (Front stiffer than rear right?) Interesting.... what tires and spring rates are you running? This didn't work at all for our race car, as it induced severe understeer. I'm just very curious how it worked for you...

 

that sounds pretty interesting...im new to roadracing/autocross and looking at diffrent peoples approaches to better performance. Hope u keep us updated.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">they're known as 'grip' drivers</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol, this still cracks me up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol, this still cracks me up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ditto.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From the research I've done, unless they are GroupN cars (which must remain close to stock in some ways), 16"+ wheel sizes are the norm on Civics/tegs.

This is why I always say that there is more to life than a 15" wheel for those cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If the cars were not Group N race cars and were shown on the magazines, they were most likely heavily modified and make lots of power to run against the turbo cars on their track days. With that much power and the wide availability of different size tires, 16 would be a better choice for their application. Some turbocharged or 2L Civics/Integras are even running 17's.

In cases where the car runs same size tires and wheels front and rear, pay attention to the details. They might appear to be the same size but they are not.
For example, F7" wide R6" wide, or F+38 offset R+45 offset, different compound tires f/r, etc.

Unlike some of the racers here in the US, keep scratching their head of why the car understeers but yet put 225 Hoosiers in the back.

 

I've always ran my car (autoX and rally) with softer rear rates, bigger sway bars and less tire pressure in the rear. It makes for a very predictable "skid".

 

As quite a few people are aware, there are two schools of thought for the spring rates - stiffer on the front (JDM) or stiffer on the rear (NA).

I seem to have one of the only setups with stiffer front springs than rear (850 F, 450-550 R). I've tried 650, 750 lbs springs in the rear, and it doesn't work for me. I don't feel I have an understeer problem. If I run the rear wing fairly flat then around turn 2 at Willow the car will balance so well the steering wheel is almost straight ahead. With more rear wing the back is tighter and I use more steering angle, which gives me faster lap times.

Anyhow, the point is that the suspension setup for a car is a combination of a whole lot of little things, spring rate just being one of them. Don't automatically assume stiff front springs will make the car understeer.

However Varo has shown me that his car will corner faster than mine on the medium speed corners, so I feel I am still a little way from finding the best setup for my car. Slow corners I am faster than Varo but not as fast as the lighter cars, fast corners I am the same or faster than everyone. (Conclusion - we need more high speed circuits).

BTW 225/50-15 tires fit on an EG, 245/45-16 or 235/40-17 fit the DC2 and EK.

Derek, who thinks Toyo should make a 275/35-16 or 275/30-17

 

i can hear it now:
"**** yo,his spring rate choices and staggered tire sizes are mad JDM.matter of fact,his whole car is"
"i know mang,his car is hella grip'd out "

Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You loved the turn in? (Front stiffer than rear right?) Interesting.... what tires and spring rates are you running? This didn't work at all for our race car, as it induced severe understeer. I'm just very curious how it worked for you... </TD></TR></TABLE>


also coming from someone who has tried this.....

bigtime understeer....

did it with

700 lb fronts with 225/50/15's
600 lb rear with 205/50/15

did it with
14k front with 225/45/15
10k rear with 225/45/15

both setup's produced too much understeer

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rubber chicken &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I seem to have one of the only setups with stiffer front springs than rear (850 F, 450-550 R). I've tried 650, 750 lbs springs in the rear, and it doesn't work for me. I don't feel I have an understeer problem. If I run the rear wing fairly flat then around turn 2 at Willow the car will balance so well the steering wheel is almost straight ahead. With more rear wing the back is tighter and I use more steering angle, which gives me faster lap times.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hi Derek,

Did the set up work for you even before the wing?

BTW-It was cool hanging out with you during Thawleys photoshoot

 

i might be way off here but here is something i relized on my last track day.

an easy way to get your car to oversteer, understeer is the sticky-ness of tires. i oftern wonder why no one really tries this?


the only reason for high high spring rates is because of having alot of grip (ooo now didn't mean that to be related to the 'grip drivers of japan'.


i came to this conclusion because the tires i ran are pretty damn sticky (advan neova's) but nothing like victoracers or hoosier. and with my setup 380lbsF/450lbsR with a rear 19mm sway-bar, 195/55/15 advan neova's, 15x6.5" gab racing rims +32mm off-set.. but my car was REALLY REALLY balanced.

now im assuming if i got stickier tires all around i will need to up the spring rates. or if i up the spring rates i will need to get stickier tires.

now i may be TOATLY wrong or i may be right and this is old news. im not sure i just like to share my experances.

now i think im going to move up to a 7 inch wide wheel but im having a hard time finding a nicely priced 7 inch wide low 30's off set wheel.

 

Thought i would ask while we are on the subject. This is more for autox that club racing.

Have a 94 civic dx coupe. Running now GC 450 frt/550 rear, Koni yellows. At the track here the car handles like a dream. Not alot of under steer just enough, but in corners i can lift the peddle and get the back to come around very easily. About to put on a comptech tie/sway bar combo, 22mm.

Now with the car reacts good right now, is the sway bar going to create more over steer?? No sway bar at this time. Running 215/45/16 azenis on the car right now. Looks like I'm going to purchase some lensco 13x7.5 from a member here. Probably change the spring around to see how it does but wanted to see if anyone might know.

Forgot, running stx till i get thr lensco.

 

It'll make it a little more oversteery but the difference won't be as dramatic as it would have been with stock springs. You'll be able to deal with the change, I made basically the same transition you're making without spinning the car. Just be smart and don't lift hard at an apex "just to see what she'll do"

 

Thanks, do need to work on my peddle usage.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You loved the turn in? (Front stiffer than rear right?) Interesting.... what tires and spring rates are you running? This didn't work at all for our race car, as it induced severe understeer. I'm just very curious how it worked for you... </TD></TR></TABLE>

My "street" DC2 used to have F20K R16K spring, stock front sway and 26mm rear sway. Front 225/50-15 rear 205/50-15 Toyo RA1's. The turn-in response was instant and with no understeer -- I mean NO understeer even at the end of a 30 mins session.

Ghettoracer drove my car at the last Expo on BeaverRun. He kept up really well with Warren in his H2 race car (GR could've passed him). Then Doctor Cortez instructed me on the second day and he also experienced (as a passenger) the amount of grip my car had.

Couple other experienced drivers and racers have also driven my car on the track with that setup (sackdz, Chris N, etc.) They like the turn-in and the responsiveness to trail braking. I was very very happy with that setup.