OT: need some info on 240's
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OT: need some info on 240's
i know this is honda-tech.....but, yeah, i need some info on 240's...mostly about engine swaps.
like, which is better....sr, rb20, rb25, rb26....how much each cost, and what's involved in swapping, and just general info
i don't expect everyone to dump down a lot of info in this thread...but maybe give me some links...
i just need some info for a project for a guy, and didn't really know where to start
like, which is better....sr, rb20, rb25, rb26....how much each cost, and what's involved in swapping, and just general info
i don't expect everyone to dump down a lot of info in this thread...but maybe give me some links...
i just need some info for a project for a guy, and didn't really know where to start
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From: Manassas, VA, USA
http://www.sr20forum.com
http://www.zilvia.net
http://www.freshalloy.com
Assuming you buy a front clip:
RB26 swap seems to be ~$8k
RB25 swap is about ~7k
RB20 swap is about $3k
SR20 swap is about $3.5k
http://www.zilvia.net
http://www.freshalloy.com
Assuming you buy a front clip:
RB26 swap seems to be ~$8k
RB25 swap is about ~7k
RB20 swap is about $3k
SR20 swap is about $3.5k
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Re: (Bailhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">turbo the stock KA. the results are awesome for the $ and its a pretty beefy motor so it can be a very reliable setup and make some pretty nice power and crazy Tq.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have a 90 and i am turboing the KA and it has more replacement than the sr20 and for the money u save u could even just about rebuild the Ka and build a custom kit for the price of an sr20. I have definitely done my research and this is the best bang for you rbuck and i think boosting a ka and beatin an sr20 that is boosted will say a lot more for me than if i had swapped. Just my .02
P.S http://www.nissaninfiniticlub.com. They have a special forum for each engine. Knock yourself out.
I have a 90 and i am turboing the KA and it has more replacement than the sr20 and for the money u save u could even just about rebuild the Ka and build a custom kit for the price of an sr20. I have definitely done my research and this is the best bang for you rbuck and i think boosting a ka and beatin an sr20 that is boosted will say a lot more for me than if i had swapped. Just my .02
P.S http://www.nissaninfiniticlub.com. They have a special forum for each engine. Knock yourself out.
i HAS questions ?
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From: OH
Re: (Honissan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honissan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a 90 and i am turboing the KA and it has more replacement than the sr20...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Displacement?
Build up the stock engine and turbo it.
Displacement?
Build up the stock engine and turbo it.
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Joined: May 2004
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From: Montreal, Canada
Re: (dave.g)
Ka's are starting to see more and more parts available for them. AEM EMS is being made adapted as we speak(maybe its out, dunno matter of weeks).The good thing about the ka is it drives like a big block, 400hp/tq @ 16psi available by 4500rpm, thats always good to hear.
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From: SR20 Specialist
Re: OT: need some info on 240's (GSRswapandslow.)
It definitely depends on what you like in an engine. if you like and engien that is goign to pull reall hard all the way to high RPM then go SR without a doubt. Sr's have been proven to 500+ whp on the stock bottom end. they are tough. lighter than a KA by 150 lbs. with cam/intake manifold/turbo upgrades they can easily do 400+ whp. they are very smooth compared to the KA.
minuses...valvetrain. if you over rev them they will break or throw rocker arms. the head design of the SR is the mechanical weak point of the engine. also for road race application the cooling system needs to be addressed. the stock water pump can have issues at extended high RPM operation.
the KA's are great for a daily driver because the bigger displacement and long stroke make for great low end TQ but the dont make dick for top end power. the long stroke of the KA makes it have very LOW V.E. at higher RPMs even with cam and intake manifold changes they just dont utilize the intake charge very well above 6000 RPM. I do not consider the KA a very good performance engine for a few reasons like the following. the crank is not a true dual counterweight style which leads to greate harmonic issues inside the engine. the stroke is so long that the engines virtually shake themselves apart above 7000 RPM.
Pluses...the KA has a superior valvetrain design to the SR. The direct acting valvetrain of the KA is incredibly solid and wiht the proper spring/cam combo you will never have valve float issues. but that is also becasue the engien is never going to rev high...
On a stock KA you probably arent going to want to go much above 1 bar of boost. that seems to be the limit of reliability for them. put some forged slugs in it and some stronger rods and you are good to go.
KA's also have been known to have cylinder head sealing issues. they have pretty thin head bolt dimeters so even with ARP studs it can be a problem. A good cometic MHG and some ARP studs can USUALLY stop the probelms but some guys just always have problems.
I'm a big SR supporter. always have been. but i do like turbo KA's...just not for a real performance engine...but more of a daily cruiser..320 hp/320 tq setup.
as for the RB's...well i've never liked them in a S-chassis. the weight increase is so great that it really does throw the handling off. if you have driven one and then driven an SR powered car back to back you know the difference. plus the RB is such a tight fit that it just look funny in there. there is almost no room between the radiator and the front of the engine. the upper radiator hose is always kinked which hurts coolant flow. and with the stock turbo on an RB25 you wont make any more power or TQ that you would wiht an SR. the turbo is too small. the RB26 is nice...but very expensive comapred to any thing else you would do..but it has even more fitment problems if you want to keep the stock twins. the RB20...wast of time...all the weight of the RB...no mroe power than SR. the ONLY advantage of the RB series is the smoothness of the inline 6. once you feel how smooth it is you can fall in love wiht the feeling.
send me a PM if you have any more quesitons.
Scott
minuses...valvetrain. if you over rev them they will break or throw rocker arms. the head design of the SR is the mechanical weak point of the engine. also for road race application the cooling system needs to be addressed. the stock water pump can have issues at extended high RPM operation.
the KA's are great for a daily driver because the bigger displacement and long stroke make for great low end TQ but the dont make dick for top end power. the long stroke of the KA makes it have very LOW V.E. at higher RPMs even with cam and intake manifold changes they just dont utilize the intake charge very well above 6000 RPM. I do not consider the KA a very good performance engine for a few reasons like the following. the crank is not a true dual counterweight style which leads to greate harmonic issues inside the engine. the stroke is so long that the engines virtually shake themselves apart above 7000 RPM.
Pluses...the KA has a superior valvetrain design to the SR. The direct acting valvetrain of the KA is incredibly solid and wiht the proper spring/cam combo you will never have valve float issues. but that is also becasue the engien is never going to rev high...
On a stock KA you probably arent going to want to go much above 1 bar of boost. that seems to be the limit of reliability for them. put some forged slugs in it and some stronger rods and you are good to go.
KA's also have been known to have cylinder head sealing issues. they have pretty thin head bolt dimeters so even with ARP studs it can be a problem. A good cometic MHG and some ARP studs can USUALLY stop the probelms but some guys just always have problems.
I'm a big SR supporter. always have been. but i do like turbo KA's...just not for a real performance engine...but more of a daily cruiser..320 hp/320 tq setup.
as for the RB's...well i've never liked them in a S-chassis. the weight increase is so great that it really does throw the handling off. if you have driven one and then driven an SR powered car back to back you know the difference. plus the RB is such a tight fit that it just look funny in there. there is almost no room between the radiator and the front of the engine. the upper radiator hose is always kinked which hurts coolant flow. and with the stock turbo on an RB25 you wont make any more power or TQ that you would wiht an SR. the turbo is too small. the RB26 is nice...but very expensive comapred to any thing else you would do..but it has even more fitment problems if you want to keep the stock twins. the RB20...wast of time...all the weight of the RB...no mroe power than SR. the ONLY advantage of the RB series is the smoothness of the inline 6. once you feel how smooth it is you can fall in love wiht the feeling.
send me a PM if you have any more quesitons.
Scott
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aren't there rocker arm holders you can get to keep them from flyign off? i think toda had some, maybe??!?!?
but if the project does start...it's a 500+ one.. there's not really been much talk about manifolds and turbos and stuff....so, that' a big place i'm lost
but if the project does start...it's a 500+ one.. there's not really been much talk about manifolds and turbos and stuff....so, that' a big place i'm lost
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Joined: Sep 2002
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From: ME
Re: OT: need some info on 240's (Enthalpy)
so are you allowed to not like the heavy RB swap? if you point out how stupid the H22/civic swap is from a handling standpoint on this board you get e-jumped 
you pointed out pretty much all of the considerations for a turbo 240. The KA I boosted fits your general description pretty well. TONS of low end and midrange. It makes the 'truck' motor feel a lot sportier when you have 10psi before 3000rpm. For a street car I think it's great! try to ride/drive in one before you make up your mind.
you pointed out pretty much all of the considerations for a turbo 240. The KA I boosted fits your general description pretty well. TONS of low end and midrange. It makes the 'truck' motor feel a lot sportier when you have 10psi before 3000rpm. For a street car I think it's great! try to ride/drive in one before you make up your mind.
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From: SR20 Specialist
Re: (GSRswapandslow.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRswapandslow. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">aren't there rocker arm holders you can get to keep them from flyign off? i think toda had some, maybe??!?!?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rocker Arm Stoppers (RAS) are available and they are less than $100. however most people dont understand what the RAS do. they prevent the hydraulic lifter from kickign the rocker arm off the pivot in the event that there is valve float and that the cam lobe is no longer in contact with the rocker arm. this does nto prevent the rocker arm from coming off the tops of the valves...which they do easily. and once that happes the rocker arm will shatter.
the best hting you cna do to an SR valvetrain is run very stiff valvesprings (ferrea dual w/ ti retianers). this prevents valvefloat and prevents shattered rocker arms. this however will overload the hydraulic lifter. so you need to upgrade to a solid lifter conversion ($190 + new valve shims).
...experience is a M.F. trust me i've been though al of this. The SR would be unstoppable if it had B-series VTEC style valvetrain.
Rocker Arm Stoppers (RAS) are available and they are less than $100. however most people dont understand what the RAS do. they prevent the hydraulic lifter from kickign the rocker arm off the pivot in the event that there is valve float and that the cam lobe is no longer in contact with the rocker arm. this does nto prevent the rocker arm from coming off the tops of the valves...which they do easily. and once that happes the rocker arm will shatter.
the best hting you cna do to an SR valvetrain is run very stiff valvesprings (ferrea dual w/ ti retianers). this prevents valvefloat and prevents shattered rocker arms. this however will overload the hydraulic lifter. so you need to upgrade to a solid lifter conversion ($190 + new valve shims).
...experience is a M.F. trust me i've been though al of this. The SR would be unstoppable if it had B-series VTEC style valvetrain.
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From: SR20 Specialist
Re: OT: need some info on 240's (Bailhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so are you allowed to not like the heavy RB swap? if you point out how stupid the H22/civic swap is from a handling standpoint on this board you get e-jumped </TD></TR></TABLE>
hey...if all you care about is drag...ther is no replacement for displacement. GO RB. hell they have a **** load stronger tranny if you get one from an R33 GT-S that has the R30A variant trans. but it'll handle like ****. the funny thing is that having been in high powered hondas...the only thign you CAN do wiht one is drag. any sort of handling is blown away by power... RWD platform is alot different you can have 350whp and still have a VERY good handling car. 350 whp in a civic or Teg...LOL forget abotu it. hit the gas and enter the understeering contest!
</TD></TR></TABLE>hey...if all you care about is drag...ther is no replacement for displacement. GO RB. hell they have a **** load stronger tranny if you get one from an R33 GT-S that has the R30A variant trans. but it'll handle like ****. the funny thing is that having been in high powered hondas...the only thign you CAN do wiht one is drag. any sort of handling is blown away by power... RWD platform is alot different you can have 350whp and still have a VERY good handling car. 350 whp in a civic or Teg...LOL forget abotu it. hit the gas and enter the understeering contest!
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Joined: Sep 2002
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From: ME
Re: OT: need some info on 240's (Enthalpy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Enthalpy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
350 whp in a civic or Teg...LOL forget abotu it. hit the gas and enter the understeering contest!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now now, that would be driver error if you can't keep your foot out of it. Even a 200whp honda will understeer with a meatstick behind the wheel. I know my civic sure as hell does not understeer at all when I auto-x it, regardless of power.
The best part about the Fwd cars with some power is that they are still much lighter than most rwd setups so handling can be top notch while still having good acceleration. Heavy cars just can't turn as well. inertia is a bitch. It's all personal preference but physics always applies. sorry for the OT ****
350 whp in a civic or Teg...LOL forget abotu it. hit the gas and enter the understeering contest!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now now, that would be driver error if you can't keep your foot out of it. Even a 200whp honda will understeer with a meatstick behind the wheel. I know my civic sure as hell does not understeer at all when I auto-x it, regardless of power.
The best part about the Fwd cars with some power is that they are still much lighter than most rwd setups so handling can be top notch while still having good acceleration. Heavy cars just can't turn as well. inertia is a bitch. It's all personal preference but physics always applies. sorry for the OT ****
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From: Montreal, Canada
Re: OT: need some info on 240's (Bailhatch)
If you do not take into account the rb, sr is better for road racing and ka is better for drag racing.The rb25 swap is somewhat straight forward, mounts, harness, some cutting and welding, your done.Its not cheap, but damn its fast.Then you have the rb26, the king, difficult swap, oen of the turbos will hit the P/S unit, take it off, custom manifold, and other stuff.One guy is doing it in my region, hes been on it for 6 months, itll be ready for the end of the month.But, were not in SoCal, and we have like 4-5 shops able to handle such a swap.Good luck, have so money on hand, tons of money!Forget the vg30dett, impossible.There is a japanese **** who put a vq56de (armada/titan engine), twin-turbo in a 240z.It kills just about anything.
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From: Fishers, IN, USA
Re: OT: need some info on 240's (Wasted_1.6EL)
sr20 is great just because stock, fits up easy, makes good power, dont have to do much messing with it just drive it and boost it daily but kinda get price galged...
ka turbo is awesome, great great tq numbers, cheap because you can find spare ka motors all day long for free, cheap to build and to boost its like the d-series with another cam lol
rb20 people dog it i love it, why? well you can get full front clip for 900-1000 bux if you look, where can you find a turbo motor equive to that? no where else, sure its same hp as sr..but wayy cheaper, you can say you have skyline motor in your car, and since its only a 2.0....its shorter stroke and you can rev the liviing **** out of it, say you can safely rev it 8-8500...try that with any of the other motors.....
my .02's worth
ka turbo is awesome, great great tq numbers, cheap because you can find spare ka motors all day long for free, cheap to build and to boost its like the d-series with another cam lol
rb20 people dog it i love it, why? well you can get full front clip for 900-1000 bux if you look, where can you find a turbo motor equive to that? no where else, sure its same hp as sr..but wayy cheaper, you can say you have skyline motor in your car, and since its only a 2.0....its shorter stroke and you can rev the liviing **** out of it, say you can safely rev it 8-8500...try that with any of the other motors.....
my .02's worth
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From: SR20 Specialist
Re: (h22 civic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h22 civic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the only thing that sucks for the ka is hall effect distibutor and trying to find a engine managment for it,now aem has one</TD></TR></TABLE>
It never fails on HondaTech. someone has to shoot his mouth off a about something he has no clue about.
KA's do not have a hall effect distributor. they have an optical sensor in inside the distributor that acts as a Cam Angle Sensor...just like the SR, VG, RB. it outputs a digital on/off 5v signal. The only reason why AEM couldnt read this (up unitl now) is that their box didnt have the capacity to handle the precision of this sensor. they didnt know how to handle the 360 slots in the CAS. their box is designed to handle hall effect sensor dut didnt have the ability to go above a 255 count on the incoming signal. Haltech, however, Has been doing this for YEARS wtih no problem. Nissan CAS is not problem for Haltech, Microtech, Motec and SEVERAL other standalone setups.
It never fails on HondaTech. someone has to shoot his mouth off a about something he has no clue about.
KA's do not have a hall effect distributor. they have an optical sensor in inside the distributor that acts as a Cam Angle Sensor...just like the SR, VG, RB. it outputs a digital on/off 5v signal. The only reason why AEM couldnt read this (up unitl now) is that their box didnt have the capacity to handle the precision of this sensor. they didnt know how to handle the 360 slots in the CAS. their box is designed to handle hall effect sensor dut didnt have the ability to go above a 255 count on the incoming signal. Haltech, however, Has been doing this for YEARS wtih no problem. Nissan CAS is not problem for Haltech, Microtech, Motec and SEVERAL other standalone setups.
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Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Central NJ
Re: (Enthalpy)
Good info...keep it coming. Ever since I got a ride in a friends sr20 powered s13 I've been thinking of getting one. I've heard the swap is substantially easier in a 91-93 s13 than the 88-90s. What's so different if this is true? Also, what kind of wiring is involved in this swap? Is it basically plug and play like most honda swaps? Does the sr20 bolt up to the s13 chassis or will you need new mounts? Just curious what is involved with an sr20 into an s13. Thanks for the info
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From: Holley 4053, carb 406 stroker anal Luber, Fag
Re: OT: need some info on 240's (chidoks)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chidoks »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anybody know any sources for rb20's?</TD></TR></TABLE>
What about parts for the SR and RB. I heard they take forever in the US and that right there is a reason to go with the KA. Cause nobody wants to wait for those ******* parts when your car breaks down and you need to fix it. But no, I have to wait for the AirPlane to go across the ******* ocean to bring me my ******* parts so I can fix my ******* head gasket or some stupid ****.
What about parts for the SR and RB. I heard they take forever in the US and that right there is a reason to go with the KA. Cause nobody wants to wait for those ******* parts when your car breaks down and you need to fix it. But no, I have to wait for the AirPlane to go across the ******* ocean to bring me my ******* parts so I can fix my ******* head gasket or some stupid ****.
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