Next on the list: ABS Brake Removal

Question 1: Is it worth it to remove the complete ABS system (motor, lines and sensors) or is it better to just pull the fuse to race?

Question 2: If I pull the fuse will it pass ITS Spec? According to the GCR I must remove the sensors to comply so I am thinking that I should just remove the whole darn system.

Has anyone done this? How much weight do I save and how much of a pain in the *** is it? Any advise?

Thanks in advance!

 

Unless you have to, I wouldnt...

ABS is brilliant for stopping cars. It thinks 40x faster than you AND its programmed to think the right thought every time! Check the ITS spec. But I would leave it in if I had the option!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Want2race &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unless you have to, I wouldnt...

ABS is brilliant for stopping cars. It thinks 40x faster than you AND its programmed to think the right thought every time! Check the ITS spec. But I would leave it in if I had the option! </TD></TR></TABLE>

on a controlled stop? most non-abs locked up stop would be shorter.
but you end up getting new tires due to the flat spot(or making them square)

i perfer running without abs on the track, dont ask me why.i just do.
and it costed me a new sets of kumho already.

 

Since ITS requires no ABS, the easiest thing is to remove one sensor like you mentioned. To completely remove ABS you would have to remove the ABS Modulator and replumb all the brake lines or purchase all the parts (brake lines, proportioning valve, etc...) from an RS.

If it were me, I'd take that minimum approach because you may end up racing the car in another series (NASA?) later that might allow it and you'd be 1 sensor away from having ABS again and ABS in the rain rules!

I don't have experience with ABS on a 95 but on the last gen Integra it is not intrusive at the track (race tires, race pads, etc...).

 

I don't think I can get away with just removing one sensor unfortunately. According to the GCR I must remove all ABS wheel sensors.

If I have to remove all of that I am thinking that its probably unlikely that I will be putting it back together again for a NASA race.

Any more opinions are appreciated!

 

'04 GCR:
"ABS or Anti-lock braking systems are not allowed except in Showroom Stock and Touring. To satisfy this rule, the ABS shall be disabled by removing or disconnecting all of the wheel sensors."

Looks like they just need to be disconnected. On our last gen Integra the ABS ECU is on the RHS rear panel (just in front and above of the rear wheelhouse) and easily accessable (look for the orange coupler) when stripped down IT trim. Just unplug that and all the sensors will be disconnected.

 

I suggest that it's not likely that you'll get protested at a regional race for having only one of the four sensors disconnected.

Make sure you can reverse whatever you do. The previous poster who said that ABS owns in the rain is right on the money. You can darn near drive like you do in the dry.

 

I've rather liked having ABS on the Golf (in SSC) and if I had time between now and October, I'd love to remove it completely - but only if i could do a complete non-ABS system swap and install correct proportioning valve(s) to get the right front/rear split.

(EDIT - I believe that with a skilled driver, a correctly balanced system will be better in the dry [for sure] and even the wet [probably], in terms of ultimate stopping power. That said, performance over race distances may not always BE about ultimate stopping power so frankly, I'd rather be able to use the ABS.)

Of the options, just disconnecting the sensors (complete meeting the IT rule) is my LEAST favorite. I don't know about the Acura specifically but the ABS handles all of the proportioning duties on the Golf and I've heard reports that the default balance without it is sketchy.

We really don't have a practical alternative for the VIR enduro, which we'll run in ITB, and I'll have a chance to try running w/o the sensors the first weekend in August. I report what I find but it might not be of any real use to you.

K

 

I just did this on a 2nd Gen Integra for ITA and it wasnt too bad. If you can find an RS at a junk yard, you will save a lot of dough. You can use all the hard brake lines, prop valve, MC(if its still good, otherwise buy a new non-ABS one) There is a TON of abs lines to take out, and you will lose a lot of weight from the car. Since you are building an IT car, it is easy to access the rear brake lines and the fronts are kind of a bitch but overall it isnt too bad, get stainless brake hoses while your at it and your good to go. Hope that helped, good luck.

-Mark

 

Kirk I would be very interested to hear your storys after the VIR enduro. I had the same feelings about disconnecting everything. At this point since I am such a rookie and very far back in the field, I wonder if I could get away with pulling the computer out temporarily until I decide which is best to do.

More opinions are welcomed!

 

This is a full blown dedicated race car right? If so, why hang on to systems/retain the ability to reconnect systems that "you might wish you had" in some scenarios if its not legal for your class regardless of conditions? I'd get rid of everything on a race car you aren't using and don't need, seems you reduce the number of things that could make life more difficult.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is a full blown dedicated race car right? If so, why hang on to systems/retain the ability to reconnect systems that "you might wish you had" in some scenarios if its not legal for your class regardless of conditions? I'd get rid of everything on a race car you aren't using and don't need, seems you reduce the number of things that could make life more difficult.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Phat-S you are correct! This is a full-blown GSR being built for ITS and H3 (if they ever come up to New England!). I will be buying a trailer shortly and de-registering it so streetability is not an issue any longer. To answer your question, the only time I would want ABS is in H3 where I *could* use it. But from what I have been told, I am not missing anything if I remove it becasue 95' GSR ABS is not very good. So I am definitely leaning toward removing the whole thing the right way.

 

I have a question: Was the GS-R available without ABS?

If it was NOT, there is no provision in the IT rules - at least that I know of - that would allow a person to transplant in an RS master cylinder and booster. I don't have my book with me here on the beach in Florida but I'm pretty sure that the GS-R and other Integras of that generation, while all in ITS, are on different spec lines, making up- and back-dates among them illegal.

This strand got me thinking about this again and I'm looking at making a proposal to the SCCA to revise the "no ABS" rule in IT. I'm thinking that it might be appropriate to allow cars with ABS to keep it, perhaps not giving them the option of additional proportioning valves as is currently the standard.

More and more cars are coming with ABS and having used it now for a season, my belief has been reinforced that it is actually a disadvantage over a correctly, if manually, balanced non-ABS system.

I'm confident that the system has probably saved several of my tires from idiot-induced flatspots and it was groovy in the rain at Roebling Rd. to be able to trail-brake in under people with two wheels in the grass. Or mud. In the dry, it is NOT ULTIMATELY faster.

K

 

Per the GCR you can run a proportioningvalve "provided they are the in-line, pressure type."

Is it not possible to remove your ABS and the plumb in an aftermarket proportioning valve to correct the fron/rear bias with success? Would this setup be different than if you were to put in the stuff from an RS?

And Kirk you are correct, it is not allowed to update/backdate with the GSR as all its siblings are in different classes.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a question: Was the GS-R available without ABS?

If it was NOT, there is no provision in the IT rules - at least that I know of - that would allow a person to transplant in an RS master cylinder and booster. I don't have my book with me here on the beach in Florida but I'm pretty sure that the GS-R and other Integras of that generation, while all in ITS, are on different spec lines, making up- and back-dates among them illegal.


K</TD></TR></TABLE>


I don't think it will matter because the RS prop valve and MC don't provide an advantage over the ABS version, they are needed to be compatible with the non-ABS brake lines, the only advantage being better front/rear balance with the prop valve. I don't think they will hassle you in tech, even though it might be on separate lines in the GCR.

For example, my car is a GS which came with ABS stock. I got the parts from an RS, non ABS. This is for a 2nd Gen Teg, so it may be different, I dunno!

-Mark

 

Remembering that this is the Internet where absolutes are king but there are significant differences among...

** Legal
** Doesn't provide an advantage
** Won't get hassled in tech

I'm not saying that it makes practical sense but there you go.

It is GREAT that all of the 2nd-generation Integras are in the same class and on the same spec line. It makes things really simple and is another argument for choosing to run one.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This strand got me thinking about this again and I'm looking at making a proposal to the SCCA to revise the "no ABS" rule in IT. I'm thinking that it might be appropriate to allow cars with ABS to keep it, perhaps not giving them the option of additional proportioning valves as is currently the standard.

More and more cars are coming with ABS and having used it now for a season, my belief has been reinforced that it is actually a disadvantage over a correctly, if manually, balanced non-ABS system.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd be very leary of this unless'n you prohibit any modifications to the brain that runs ABS (if it is separate from the ECU - or if not, require the car use the OE and very much unmodified ECU it came with). I could be wrong (and someone who knows I am sure will pipe up quick-like) but I could have sworn my CL-S' traction control system was directly tied into ABS or some form of the braking system - I always described it to people as a car doing a crab dance around the track if I didn't disable it. I am sure your intent would be good with this but folks with enough money and enough desire to win could have a field day w/ ECU mods and ABS I fear.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm confident that the system has probably saved several of my tires from idiot-induced flatspots and it was groovy in the rain at Roebling Rd. to be able to trail-brake in under people with two wheels in the grass. Or mud. In the dry, it is NOT ULTIMATELY faster.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you are correct that stock ABS on most street cars is not fit as part of a racing package so to speak but, allow someone to modify it and who knows what you come up with. Personally, I think its a virtually un-policable idea and something like that means that it typically opens up for all. In that case, I think cost for entry just went up for little ole IT racing. Even if not, I think you'll get one heck of a push back from guys that ripped theirs out to be "legal" for their class.

 

Sorry to pull this back up, but I am now rethinking things. Looking at the ABS and how much to remove, will not be fun. However, this is a race car and Phat-S is right. I should take out everything that is not neccessary and this would be reoving the complete ABS and re-plumbing the hard lines. This may be hard, but at the same time I would like to be able to run an aftermarket proporting valve by my driver seat so that I can adjust from the cockpit. Does this logic sound far off?

Next question: I have done a dearch, but there are really no comprehensive post on how to remove the ABS. Can anyone please give me details? Thanks!

 

We still haven't determined what you can legally remove. The key question is, "Was the GSR available without ABS?"

If it was, then you can up/backdate to that system - primarily the master cylinder and booster assembly - and probably SHOULD do so to make the change. If not, then you have to retain the original parts and you get to do some garage engineering to determine how to plumb the lines and prop valve(s).

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We still haven't determined what you can legally remove. The key question is, "Was the GSR available without ABS?"


K</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, the Gen 3 GSR was never available stock without ABS.

 

The RS was, is it legal to swap those parts over?

 

The GSR is listed on a different spec line than the other Integras of that generation - which is why they can be headed for ITA while the GSR stays in S. You can't use any parts that were not stock for your car.

In my case, there were 2.0 Golfs - all of which are on the same spec line - that came with non-ABS brakes, so I can just tear out everything and start from scratch. Not that I'm looking forward to it...

The situation IS better than it was even a few months ago, I think. I don't remember which FasTrack announced it but I THINK that there was a bulletin recently that explained it was legal to actually REMOVE the unused ABS hardware: The original interpretation only allowed (by requiring) that it be DISABLED. You should probably find that and read it carefully.

At this point, it looks like GSR owners are limited to the allowances described for brake lines and prop valves.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">At this point, it looks like GSR owners are limited to the allowances described for brake lines and prop valves. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If that were the case, cant you use RS hardlines and prop valve?

 

I'm being a little hesitant to say too definitively because I don't have my GCR with me. Someone check and see what the pertinent paragraphs say...

K

 

Are there Kits available to do this, ie. other than using the RS parts?
Are there any threads detailing the conversion?