Mike Mastandrea from Naples Acura is the owner of this motor.
Any personal remarks can be emailed to him at twincammike1@aol.com

Engine:
B18C5 cylinder head, ported and polished by Topspeed Performance
ITR intake valves, .5mm oversized exhaust valves
ITR outer springs, Portflow Inner Springs, Portflow retainers
ITR stock air intake hose w/ Comptech Foam Filter (hot air intake)
Tanabe Hyper Medallion Exhaust and test pipe (no bottle necks)
Skunk2 P28 ECU, Kenji's OBD-1 jumper, Fields VTEC controller
Endyn Rollerwaves in 81.5mm bore, ARP rod bolts in stock ITR rods
Static compression: 12.2:1
RC270cc injectors were used with Toda A's
RC310cc injectors were used with Toda B's and JUN3's

Dynorun .082 (JUN 3)
Intake cam -1.5
Exhaust cam +1.0
Fuel pressure 48
VTEC 5700
-1% from 1000-4000 on Fields, +10% from 5000-8000
A/F: 12.8:1 before VTEC. The motor went lean to 14.2:1 at VTEC transition.. but by 6000rpm it steadied out to 13.2:1 constant.

Dynorun .069 (Toda SPEC B)
Intake cam +7.0
Exhaust cam +7.0
Fuel pressure 28
VTEC 5700
+12% from 1000-8000rpm on Fields unit
A/F: Excellent mixture everywhere. Constant 13.1:1 across the board.

Dynorun .022 (Toda SPEC A)
Intake cam +5.0
Exhaust cam +3.5
Fuel pressure 36
VTEC 5200
Stock settings on Fields. No gains were made by making changes in fuel.
A/F: 12.9:1 to 13.1:1... attempts to richen or lean it were useless. The best settings were stock fuel maps.

Here goes... SPEC A vs. SPEC B


SPEC B vs. JUN 3


Have fun!

 

Please explain what's occuring around 76-77 hundred??

 

mikeK, couple questions, 1) why 28psi fuel pressure on 310cc injector s? 2) you remember what the a/f ratio was around the 6000-6500rpm range ? 3) which header is used here ?

My concerns is that I have NEVER seen that kind of spec B dyno curve for any of the B's that I've tuned (about 20 different cars with spec B's I've tuned in the past). This can stray many people's belief. Secondly, if you got the best results with 0 overlap(+7Exh/+7Int) on the spec B's then either one of your timing gears was off a whole teeth or the car needed a lot more fuel so adjusting gears won't really show any change.

Greg

 

What about the header that was used?

 

Reason for the low pressure is.. no matter where else we brought it, he would lose power. Tried 36, 40, 45, 50psi to no avail. Seriously. If we raised it up the idle would get hella worse and it would lose power everywhere. Mugen JDM 4-1 header is used..

I can assure you that the cams were installed properly. I have done countless cam gear installs, and timing belt replacements. I know what is TDC and what is a tooth off.
I remember talking to you some time ago about degreeing the cams in a particular fashion.. but I didn't do it. I just went ahead and yanked the old cams out and installed the B's the same way I would install any other cam like a ITR or Crower or whatever..
Like I said before.. maybe I don't have the magic touch when it comes to Spec B's.. I don't know. I gave it a valiant effort and that's all I can say.

Looks to me like that's about where the dyno runs intersect. Why?



[Modified by Mike K, 4:14 PM 11/20/2001]

 

you claim x-over is in the 5's but the B's seem as if they switch around 77xxrpms?

 

I can assure you the B's were 5700 VTEC.

We did one pull with VTEC at 4500 and another with VTEC at 8000

They intersected at 5800rpm. It made for a beautiful transition.

This is how I get the VTEC point for most of the cars I have dyno'd.

 

WOW!!! Midrange and torque, two words I never thought I'd use together on an NA ITR motor lol.

 

Greg and Jack, do you find that you end up with cam gear settings that fall within a certain range when tuning Spec B'ed engines? If so, what sort of settings do you find work best for you? I'm still struggling to find a sweet spot on the cam timing for my engine...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions
Dave

 

+7 IN and +7 EX seems reaaaaaaly strange to me too

BPR - who found +4 +1 to be the best on his motor (196.6whp 136 tq) - so far...

 

Every car is different, every car reacts differently to settings.

 

i was under the asumption Bs needed a higher vtec engagement... you seem to dispel this. Why didnt you at least test a 6000-7000 vtec point?

 

I know every car is different and tends to have different cam gear settings (if I never hear this again I'll be a happy man), but at the same time I've noticed an undeniable trend that the vast majority of plots I've seen for Toda cams have settings very similar to the one Big Phat R has ended up with. I've ended up with these exact same settings after many hours on the dyno myself. That being the case, I find it really frustrating hearing how "every car is different" (duh!) in defense of some really unusual settings on Mike K's toda-cammed engine. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to ask questions about the set-up being run on this particular test, since that's the only way to come to a better understanding of the results -- particularly when these results are being used by some to suggest that JUN's are somehow universally superior to Toda's.

With the flame war raging over on Mike K's original post about his camshaft test, you'd think this single (though very admirable!) effort to test out a few cams on a couple of engines was the defining moment in camshaft history! To me, putting together an overall impression of each cam based on the many dyno plots available online and elsewhere is a far more useful approach to this never ending debate. Mike K's made a very fine contribution to this overall body of knowledge, nothing more and nothing less IMHO. I'll post my dyno results once my engine is broken in after a recent rebuild so that I can be part of this body of growing knowledge too...

Dave

 

Come on guys...some of you give the guy a break...some of you talk like Mike is a moron.

Mike!! YOU INSTALLED THE CAM GEARS WRONG!
Mike!! +7 IS TOO MUCH!
Mike!! NO OVER LAP = SUCKS!

why even bother 2nd guessing?

Any post to contradict his findings with "this would have worked better" looks like jealousy and bitterness or something.

I deal with what Mike does here all the time. For years now. And from my view, I look at posts like "you should have tried X" as just lsing HP, cause I tried it. or he tried it.

You need to understand, some of you, when you have unlimited access to a Dynojet...you just sit on there all day and nite and try every damn thing until it makes more HP. Its just that simple.

Shoot, I am just happy that a car I tuned won first place in Bakersfield this weekend at the battle of the imports. This cam arguing has become meaningless..

Nobody is going to proove anything.

Jeff

 

FWIW



95 B16A, stock head/gasket/block 80k miles
MegaTube intake, JG TB, ITR manifold, coated JDM 4-1, test pipe, 60 mm Z.Speed exhaust, Crower Ti retainers, ITR yellow outter springs, Portflow inners. Cam gear straight up. Skunk2 ECU, 310 injectors, ~40 psi FP, MSD 6A Blaster 3 coil.


hmm mike you got any CTR/ITR vs. JUN/Toda or combo cams on the motors you played with??



[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 3:22 AM 11/21/2001]

 

We tried different VTEC points. Now, don't get me wrong.. the higher VTEC point wasn't BAD.. but the VTEC at 5700 proved for a seamless line. With VTEC at 7000(which we tried), the area from 5700-6900 was about 2 or 3hp less.
It made no sense to me to do this.

Sorry the B's didn't do what was expected. Hell, the JUN3's didnt do what I expected either! By driving Mike M's car on the street before dyno.. I would have put $100.00 down that it was gonna break 200whp. It sure as hell feels like it.

Dyno doesn't lie. If you guys don't find my tuning ability to be sufficient, I apologize. I just figured that this board would make the most with the knowledge gained from this test.

 

Great info Mike!

 

I'd like that graph Frank.

 

either a lot of people are trying to view them, which is probably the case or the server is down.

 

Frank, those Skunk2 cams must be perfectly matched to your motor to make that kind of power on stock head, gasket and bottom end. I am impressed. The only problem is that Skunk2 cams usually cost more in Canada than Todas. Do you think the Skunk 2 cams would make anything near that kind of power on a JDM GSR motor?

Thanks,

AW

 

Great information Mike!!

I looked to me that the Area under the curve for TODA B and JUN 3 are around the same. The TODA is making more power for like 4000rpm in the mid-range, but the JUN 3 really take over in the last 1500-2000rpm. I wouldn't say which cam dominate the other one. Both very good cams that make power in different RPM range. With this graph, it make me think that 9000rpm redline for TODA B is more than enough, which is good on the valvetrain for not needing to rev to 9500rpm all the time.

Also, you have such a low fuel pressure setting on the TODA B, but you used the fuel controller to add tons of fuel to it. Why don't you dial up the fuel pressure and use the fuel controller to take out fuel? Because I heard that VAFC or other fuel controller is better at taking out fuel than adding more fuel.

Also, looked like everyone is using 310cc injector for SpecB, I guess that what I will be buying next. Don't really like the idea of using the VAFC to add 10-15% all the way from 3-7000RPM now.


[Modified by mafay2, 4:37 PM 11/21/2001]

 

Look at the torque difference about 5500rpms between the B18 and the B16. 25ft-lbs is HUGE! This is why I don't like the B16A motor.

Otherwise, good info guys. My A's feel waaay stronger in the mid range than what my stock ITR cams did.