Ok heres the deal.

95 gsr longblock with 75k on it.
ctr cams
itr/portflow valvesprings
portflow titanium retainers
skunk2 cam gears
skunk2 intake manifold
hondata s200 tuned by boostedhybrid(vtec@5700, 8700 rev limit)
aem short ram intake
dc 4-1 header(not the 2.5 collector)
Free flowing 2.5 exhaust with no cat
act prolite flywheel
compression is 210 across


My baseline with stock motor/ecu w/ intake and exhaust was 152 hp and 118 tq. I ran the car with this setup and ran consistant 14.0's all day on street tires. I run the car now with everything listed and run consistant 14.0's on street tires. My best so far was 13.7 on 22 by 8 m&h slicks with a 1.90 60ft. Its not like i'm new to the track. I'm originally a forced induction guy but I figured I would play with all motor for a little while and am pretty disapointed. Its not like I was aiming for anything unthinkable either, I would have been plenty happy with 175 to the wheels. I don't really want to blame it on jeff either because he was very rushed that day and proper fans weren't available but I really don't know what to do here. I am very disapointed with the power output though, I've seen b16's with less goodies make more max power. I feel that everything I bought was a waste of money and I should have put the money towards boost. Tell me what you think, heres the dyno sheet.

 

Change your Pistons(OOP73,P30,PR3) Stage1 0r 2 skunk cams,port the head, modify the manifold,lose the header.You should be much happier!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sinisterprostok &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Change your Pistons(OOP73,P30,PR3) Stage1 0r 2 skunk cams,port the head, modify the manifold,lose the header.You should be much happier! </TD></TR></TABLE>
I really don't think all of that is necessary though. I've seen stock block gsr engines make 180 whp and the setups weren't even that crazy. I really think it has much more in it, just needs more time on a dyno. With everything I have its running the same times as it did in stock form, I really think something is wrong there. I appreciate your suggestions though, keep them coming. If I do end up ripping apart the engine it will be to throw the head on a b20 block with some high compression pistons and see what that does.

 

P&P and bumping up the compression would help

 

anyone else?

 

I would like to see the A/F ratio displayed with your dyno chart. It sure looks to me that you are not getting 6-8k peak you should have on that block. I would make sure your ignition timing and air fuel are ideal before going real drastic. I would think you should be able to get at least low 170's if hondata is tuned properly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B20JonLee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would like to see the A/F ratio displayed with your dyno chart. It sure looks to me that you are not getting 6-8k peak you should have on that block. I would make sure your ignition timing and air fuel are ideal before going real drastic. I would think you should be able to get at least low 170's if hondata is tuned properly. </TD></TR></TABLE>

From what I can remember the air/fuel ratio was ok. One of the things that had me concerned though is when my cam gears were adjusted the proper system for adjusting cam gears was not followed. From what I understand with the cam gears you always start with the intake cam gear first and adjust the timing with a light for every change you make on the intake cam gear. Then when you get max power out of just the intake you change the exhaust cam gear without touching the intake anymore. I shot the timing then when I got home because I was wondering about it the whole way home and guess what, It was 26 degrees advanced compared to the 16 degrees advanced when I got there.

 

i have an idea either put a nice bottle of nitrous or turbo it. it is not going to run like the crx did.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by justinh595 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I shot the timing then when I got home because I was wondering about it the whole way home and guess what, It was 26 degrees advanced compared to the 16 degrees advanced when I got there. </TD></TR></TABLE>

OMFG are u ******* serious? U can't do that with the dizzy can u? I think like 6-7 degrees is all u get w/ the dizzy... JESUS... He MUST have fooked something up and skipped a tooth on the intake cam holy ****, batman!!!

Ratliff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by crxtim &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have an idea either put a nice bottle of nitrous or turbo it. it is not going to run like the crx did. </TD></TR></TABLE>
for tim

 

aww where's the all-mota lub?
;-)

Ratliff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aut0tek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

OMFG are u ******* serious? U can't do that with the dizzy can u? I think like 6-7 degrees is all u get w/ the dizzy... JESUS... He MUST have fooked something up and skipped a tooth on the intake cam holy ****, batman!!!

Ratliff</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nah it didn't skip a tooth or anything, I put it right back to 16-17 degrees. Just kinda frustrates me that I could of done it better myself.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Manuel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You Shode be in the 13.80 or 13.90 on street tires do you have CTR Intake and Exasta cam's? are you in a EG or a Coupe</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats about what I was thinking too, the setup is in a 95 cx hatch that weighs in at 2340 with me in it. I'm gonna see if I can get any better times out of it on street tires this friday at maple grove as long as the weather doesn't screw me over again.

 

damn... I never knew u could put 10 degrees of advance just on the dizzy. :-/
anyhoo, I guess that's all I got. lol.

good luck, mang!

Ratliff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Manuel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">B18c1 I/h/e skunk2 I.M 155 to 165 Whp Troe some ITR Cam's wit Cam's Gear's 8 to 12 Whp I Seen This set up Makeing 168 174Whp wit ITR cam's</TD></TR></TABLE>

with what ecu? Thats the kinda **** i'm talking about, either my engine is junk or I need to find someone to tune my car.

 

you also cant compare dyno numbers from some you find on the internet, since the type of dyno, ambient air temperature, fans in front of the car, altitute, etc etc will cause a lot of variation.

 

there is a lot of variation but i'm not comparing to anything exactly, just in general

 

As far as the dyno numbers are concerned, Koz's dynojet reads a hair bit lower than the other dynojets I have used in the past. A dyno number is just a number. There is going to be variation between each dyno. All of the turbo cars that I tuned at Koz's were making consistently lower numbers from common turbo kits that I have tuned in the past on other dynojets. While you are comparing apples to apples in a sense, the fact that the car was getting hot as a result of one fan and that their dyno reads a slight bit lower than other dynojets, your 10whp lower numbers can easily gained.

As far as the cam timing goes, your mechanical advance at the distributor was compensated for within the ROM Editor software. So for every degree that I advanced your intake gear, a degree was subtracted from the timing maps. Timing isn't purely mechanical, it's also controlled by the ecu. Just because you were seeing 26 degrees advance at idle doesn't mean you were running that much more advance in the partial/WOT maps. What rpm did you take your base timing at?? If you are not checking the timing advance at 5-600rpm, then you are not actually getting the "base" timing. If you were checking it at 1000-1200 rpm, it's easily possible to have the timing at 26 degrees advance.

As far as adjusting the cam gear goes, if you knowingly compensate the timing maps for the intake cam adjustment then you don't have to retime the engine after each change. I started with cam gear adjustments that I found worked well with a similar set up to yours. Your timing maps were compensated for accordingly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B20JonLee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would like to see the A/F ratio displayed with your dyno chart. It sure looks to me that you are not getting 6-8k peak you should have on that block. I would make sure your ignition timing and air fuel are ideal before going real drastic. I would think you should be able to get at least low 170's if hondata is tuned properly. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The a/f was tuned at 13:1, 13.5:1, and 14:1 to see the effects of a/f on power gains. I found the most optimal gains at 13.5:1. The a/f was a dead solid line at 13.5:1 during WOT operation on the dyno.

 

Yeah well, I'm pretty sure I'm giving up trying to make any more power all-motor so if anyone wants to buy my cams,cam gears or hondata let me know. Cams seriously have about 1200 miles on them, same with the gears and hondata. i'm gonna post them in the classifieds in the next couple of days.

 

i do not understand with the timing issue is that from what i know is that you never even put a timing light on his motor to even know were his mechanical timing was at. wouldn't you need to check timing with a light and then with the datalogger to make sure they were correct? how can he have 26 degrees advanced with the timing adjustment connector jumped to take timing advance out from the ecu? that is what it is there for? oh i don't think he would be checking timing at that high. i may be wrong stated this questions because i am no "tuner" but this is what i know. i think that you do not have much experience from tuing all motor setups, i remember you tuning turbo setups back when you used to have a pms and there was no hondata. in my opinion i think you are used to and like tuning turbo cars. this is only my opinion i am not trying to start a pissing match because obviously you know more about tuning cars then i do.

 

bigger cams.....get more air into those cylinders.

 

"File--&gt;Settings--&gt;Vehicle tab---&gt; Make sure its 16, and then hit OK. This is critical. You see, don't make the mistake of a rookie tuner by having the number in the Hondata different than the number on the distributor. Talk about confusing. Don't even think about starting without 16, and 16, I don't care who tells you otherwise. turbo, NOS, whatever, your doing it that way! DO IT! Because what these rookies didn't think of is that 99% of the time your driving around in less than 50% throttle and the reduction in timing due to the NOS, or Turbo, or Blower are not going to be needed until columns 6-10, for when your giving it alot of throttle. If you make the timing anything different than 16 in the Hondata, or on your distributor, your effectively throwing off your entire matrix of numbers. We want the numbers to stand for exactly what they came from the factory, at Honda, and go from there."

That is straight from import builders tuning article, I understand how every tuner has their own style and different ways of doing things but I've seen different articles saying the same things.

 

id say defenitly get some beefier cams

 

i think his biggest restriction is the the dc header with the little collector. i know he is fixing it now. the kid knows his car and how to drive it. i think the motor is has more power in it then what it is at the moment. that is what he is asking. if he wanted more power we would be pulling the bottem end apart and installing some new pistons at least. i think he asking more of an opinion or comparision of similar setups that have made/making more power/better et. sorry put any person that knows what a motor does knows bigger cams higher compression will make more power. i am waiting for the next post stat exact cam to get that the ht bandwagen likes at the moment. i think he has all the right componets to make good power but they are not working together. if he would get bigger cams he would need more compression to use them fully. he had either skunk stage 2 or 3 in the that head before and the car was slower then it is now. you need the compression to move the air up in the higher rpm that bigger cams work best at.

 

I've had at least 50 cars come through my shop in the last 3 months for tuning. 95% of the cars that I tune are forced induction cars, you are right. However, checking the timing on an all motor car is not as critical as a forced induction car. Synching Hondata and the mechanical timing advance becomes a huge issue when you are talking about 2-3 degrees timing at high boost levels. While timing does play a role in power production with all motor WOT performance, it's not significant in partial throttle driving. I can take as much as + or - 5 degrees timing from the partial throttle timing maps and measure the hp/torque on the fly and see about a 2-3hp difference. I varied his timing at WOT performance on the dyno and no significant gains were to be found. It's possible that I did not check his timing (I've had tons of cars come since then and every forced induction car has had the timing checked on it and has been synched with Hondata).

I use 14 degrees base to start with on all cars, guess I didn't follow the Bible. Your partial throttle maps were compensated for and were running enough ignition timing to give good throttle response. When we were in your car street tuning, your throttle response had improved, which was a result of the changes I made to the partial throttle timing maps. I tune the way I tune. While I don't tune a lot of all motor cars, the basics behind tuning an engine are the same. I've tuned enough all motor cars that I'm not unfamiliar with what I'm doing. In fact, I had a customer with a bone stock type r, short ram intake, the JDM 4-1 DC header, and a 2.5" exhaust, and he made 190whp with Hondata and NO cam adjustments.

I gained 14whp from your baseline of 152whp. If you are so unconfident with the tune I did on your car, take it to any other shop start with the baseline of 166whp that I made on your car (you might pick up another 3-4whp as a result of the engine not being heat soaked, so your initial run might be closer to 170whp), and see how much more power they can get out of it without changing any of the parts on your set up. I've already discussed with you the day you had the dyno appointment after your car wasn't making as much power as you would have liked to see it make, that you needed a 2.5" collector to let the cams breathe.

According to you, you went to another dyno shop before coming to me. You sat on their dyno for 5-6 hours while they were trying to figure out how to make the Hondata system work. You came to me after there was no improvement in the driveability of your car and I actually traded you an ecu because they hacked into your ecu so badly by cutting random resistors off the chipboard. I ate the cost of having to repair your ecu by doing an even trade with you. I thought I'd help you out since you already ran into so many problems trying to get your car running 100%. When we finished street tuning, you told me that you were completely satisfied with the work that I did because your car idled and drove better than its previous state.