After watching the Canadian Grand Prix, I was struck at what a wasteful, natural resource/fossil fuel-intensive exercise this whole thing is. MPG rates are horrible, and huge percentages of the cars are discarded after every single race - engine, tires, brakes, and so on.

Gas prices are reaching record highs, and I think we're looking at a sustained price hike. This won't just translate to higher fuel/lubricant prices - it will affect everything else. Fossil fuels power the plants that make all our machine parts and so on. Rubbers, plastics, and even asphalt are all petroleum products.

I can't help but think that motorsports, professional and amateur, will have to be an unfortunate but necessary casualty of global energy shortages.

I'd imagine it would be the amateur guys who get squeezed out first because of rising costs, and then it would sort of trickle up from there until it reached NASCAR, F1, and the like.

My question is, how expensive would racing (or HPDEing) have to get for you guys to abandon it?

 

I only am doing HPDE's currently but I would imagine if it got up to costing me 4-500 dollars an event including the cost of the event I would probably only do one or two per year. It would half to be really expensive for me to give it up completly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMTYPER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I only am doing HPDE's currently but I would imagine if it got up to costing me 4-500 dollars an event including the cost of the event</TD></TR></TABLE>

&lt;reality check&gt; thats what its already costing you &lt;/reality check&gt;

Add up the cost of:

Tires
Brake pads
Gas
Hotel room/Camping gear
Wear items
Maintenance

And so forth......

 

Alternative energy is really where Formula 1 could shine. If regular fossil fuels became cost prohibitive it is the series that could help lead the way for research in new fuels. As I see it now, part of the reason alternative fuel vehicles are not as strong as they could be is that so much money is being poured into traditional petrol-powered engines. If the balance shifted I think F1 could survive quite well.

The other forms of motorsport would probably be hit pretty hard for awhile, but eventually alternatives would become viable for those series too. The landscape may be dramatically altered but I have no doubt that racing would survive.

Club racing would probably take a long time to recover but in the meantime it may mean a boost for kart racing or even motorcycle racing (since both consume much less fuel).

At any rate I think the racing world will remake itself one way or the other.

 

I think if you compare the amount consumed in race weekends compared with the consumption of the rest of the world, it's really quite minute. Notice one of the Le Mans teams this year was using a diesel, and they cut their fuel consumption way down. I don't see motorsports dying off, it will just have to adapt to the changing economic climate. Remember Group C cars were designed around fuel efficiency, and those cars were quite entertaining to watch.

I may have missed your point on this Ross, but this is what popped in my head when I read your post

Brian

 

i cant wait for the future, i just hope they dont make regulations for how much hydrogen we can inject into our natural gas engines....

 

Questions:

1) Were people racing in the 50's?
2)Are gas prices more than 100 times higher now 50 years later?
3)Are we going to stop racing 50 years from now?

oN (3 ,seY (2 ,seY (1 :srewsnA

 

true, maybe by then the average houshold income will be 1.3 million dollars

and you will be able to buy your beloved civic for 65,000 dollars

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My question is, how expensive would racing (or HPDEing) have to get for you guys to abandon it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It didnt take too long for my eyes to open.

I've been track free for over seven months now!

YEAH BABY.......

 

I'm willing to bet that the big teams spend more on champagne each year than fuel . . . . ok well maybe not, but out of Ferrari's $400 million budget I'm sure the cost of gas doesn't really play much of a role.

I'm pretty sure that if Ferrari (or anyone else) could increase fuel economy while maintaining performance they'd be all over it. Every gallon takes time to pump in, time that could be the difference between a win and 2nd place.

As for amature racers. Some are already paying $5+ per gallon of fuel. I doubt it really makes a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I can't help but think that motorsports, professional and amateur, will have to be an unfortunate but necessary casualty of global energy shortages.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There is plenty of energy out there, just not so much in the form of fossil fuels, particularly oil.

I wouldn't worry. If there will exist (and there will exist) electric/hydrogen fuel cell/solar/whatever powered cars in the future, there will also be people racing them.

 

When you think about it, alternative fuels would be the best possible direction for motorsports, at least on the cutting edge level (i.e. F1, Pro Sports Car, etc), to head in. Just think how much more quickly these technologies might make their way into the consumer vehicle lineup if Mercedes, BMW, Audi, GM, Ford, etc poured gozillions of development dollars into making these alternative powerplants competitive in a racing / high performance environment - if an engine can be made to reliably make high power levels on hydrogen, biodeisel, veggie fryer oil, or whatever, under the harshest of conditions, one would speculate that making that same powerplant power a 2 seat urban commuter or a 6 passenger family vehicle would only be a matter of scaling back that technology. Is it just me or is all of the current hybrid technology centered around the minute, tiny little 2 and 4 passenger econoboxes? They're taking what is already pretty good and making it better, while what they're improving upon isn't part of the problem! Give me a Suburban that will haul all my gear, family of 4, and pull my racecar and make it run on vegetable oil and I'd gladly pay a premium price for it! The fuel is cheap, and we don't have to rely on or send one damned more dollar to the middle east for crude.

The fact is the fuel (read: oil) industry isn't gonna spend one dime on developing alternative fuels, regardless of what they would tell you, and thanks to the oil lobbyists the government will only spend enough money on alternatives to be able to say that they're spending money on alternatives. It's gonna be up to the carmakers on this one, i'd bet, and they're profit driven. Possibly the high fuel prices are a good thing - the demand for more fuel efficient vehicles may soon be high enough that the car makers might actually seriously take note and get off their collective asses.

Just imagine: Solar assisted hybrid electric/veggie diesel F1. YAAY!

 

I read somewhere that a whole season of formula one for all teams combined uses less fuel than one transatlantic flight in a 747.

Also, I have thought about this topic a little as well. I don't think it's realistic that even in our own lifetimes, we will be able to consume fossil fuels at this rate.

Medium/short-term, I see biodiesel as an alternative to fossil fuels, and most diesel cars already in production can already run on some form of vegetable oil. We will be able to grow our fuel at some point. Also, we are seeing more and more diesel race cars in Europe, particularly in endurance events.

Finally, long-term, I don't see why we wouldn't race 100% electric vehicles. I have driven many electric forklifts and can imagine an electric car built for racing to be quite enjoyable in the long term.

 

BP is actually investing a decent amount of money in alternative fuels because I think they realize that if they're ahead of the game they can dominate the next generation of transportation fuels. If the oil companies would be smart and think of themselves as energy companies instead of oil companies everyone would be way better off.

Yeah the upper echelon of motorsport could accelerate the development of alternative fuels by several factors. Here's to hoping that the powers that be take advantage of the opportunity.

Although I hate to get into politics on car msg boards I have to say that alternative fuels were certainly help us avoid unnecessary conflicts in the future. As fossil fuels become more scarce there are certainly going to be wars over it as there have been in the past. If I were president I would be sinking huge amounts of money into alternative fuels research so that we can avoid being dragged into oil wars in the future.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gTeg90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The fact is the fuel (read: oil) industry isn't gonna spend one dime on developing alternative fuels, regardless of what they would tell you, and thanks to the oil lobbyists the government will only spend enough money on alternatives to be able to say that they're spending money on alternatives. It's gonna be up to the carmakers on this one, i'd bet, and they're profit driven. Possibly the high fuel prices are a good thing...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Higher fuel prices are definitely bad in the short run on all our wallets, but good in the long run. Higher fuel prices will force the industry to develop alternative fuel cars. The technology is there, it is simply not yet economically profitable. (That’s the same reason why there are so many more coal power plants than nuclear ones.) But as long as the price of gas is still cheap, that will never happen and totally dependent on the oil producing countries we will remain to be.

 

As someone already stated, it would have to get pretty expensive for me to stop completely.

Biodiesel should be available in most areas already. In the Seattle area, we can buy three different variations/mixtures in 55 gallon drums. Since it's not mainstream yet, it is more expensive (about $3.50 per gallon). I'm not using it yet, but I'm keeping an eye on it.

I have a few articles on it I can email if anyone's interested.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BP is actually investing a decent amount of money in alternative fuels because I think they realize that if they're ahead of the game they can dominate the next generation of transportation fuels. If the oil companies would be smart and think of themselves as energy companies instead of oil companies everyone would be way better off.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly. The more they spend, and the sooner, the better off they will be in the long run. And the better off the world will be when the supply of cash that is keeping the [insert derogatory reference to arab nations] relevant dries up. Unfortunately, the "oil companies" are only spending pennies on the dollars compared to what they should be spending.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah the upper echelon of motorsport could accelerate the development of alternative fuels by several factors. Here's to hoping that the powers that be take advantage of the opportunity.</TD></TR></TABLE>

here here.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although I hate to get into politics on car msg boards I have to say that alternative fuels were certainly help us avoid unnecessary conflicts in the future. As fossil fuels become more scarce there are certainly going to be wars over it as there have been in the past. If I were president I would be sinking huge amounts of money into alternative fuels research so that we can avoid being dragged into oil wars in the future.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The very notion that this is not the proper forum for political ramblings lead me to delete my original remarks about our oil-producing "friends" but I feel no shame in saying that I feel anything we can change about our lifestyles, even if it is a great sacrifice to us, that would harm their financial position and reduce their influence in the world is a good idea to me.

 

I've thought about this very thing quite a bit. Do a google search on "Peak Oil" for more info on the coming energy crisis. Whether you buy into it or not, its pretty clear that oil is just going to keep getting more and more expensive, which will start to affect the cost of pretty much everything we purchase. Who knows what things will be like in 10-15 years when global oil production is lagging way behind demand. With Chinas energy demands growing like a ****, it really makes you wonder whats going to happen in the future and how motorsports will be affected.

I guess that's one of the cool things about autocross... you hardly use any gas, most people can get a full season out of tires and brakes, and there are plenty of local events to keep you racing close to home.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civic44 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I read somewhere that a whole season of formula one for all teams combined uses less fuel than one transatlantic flight in a 747.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Truth. Jet engines have to be the most wasteful, inefficient creations, and probably do more to pollute than all of the automobiles, powerplants, and charcoal grills in the world combined. Unfortunately there are no alternatives that can meet the demands that we have for covering large distances in short timeframes. Maybe we should start thinking about alternative fuel rocket powered airliners! Yeee haaaa!

-Floyd, who is griping about wasteful aircraft, and has a pilots license, and wishes we could use less fuel yet has a 16 mpg Tahoe. Damned I wish I didn't get a tax write-off for that road hog, I woulda bought an Accord to haul the clients in!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've thought about this very thing quite a bit. Do a google search on "Peak Oil" for more info on the coming energy crisis. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've done quite a bit of reading on it. The book "The Party's Over" is a good read, and basically hypothesizes that the coming oil crisis won't just affect fuel-driven enterprises, but will bring the industrial age to a close - ie. forget racing your car...simply driving it might be prohibitive.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've done quite a bit of reading on it. The book "The Party's Over" is a good read, and basically hypothesizes that the coming oil crisis won't just affect fuel-driven enterprises, but will bring the industrial age to a close - ie. forget racing your car...simply driving it might be prohibitive.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Haven't read that book yet, and I'll admit I'm no expert on this subject. Its hard to say how big of a problem it really is. My dad said that people have been worried about a coming oil crisis since the 60's... but here we are 40 years later driving Hummers and Excursions. You'd think if it was that big of a problem, somebody'd be doing something about it right? Who knows though, since companies are profit-driven and there just isn't much money to be made in alternative fuels... yet. Maybe motorsports will be responsible for the technologies that will replace fossil fuels? I guess we'll see...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brett@SoloRacer.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Haven't read that book yet, and I'll admit I'm no expert on this subject. Its hard to say how big of a problem it really is. My dad said that people have been worried about a coming oil crisis since the 60's... but here we are 40 years later driving Hummers and Excursions. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not to belittle the importance of the whole issue, but people have been fortelling the end of the world as we know it, just around the corner, for many many generations. Signed that the end of the world is near, you know, are everywhere. And they have been for a long time. Just seems to happen the opposite, as we always find a way to adapt.

I think we'll always be racing. May be electric and hydrogen powered, but we'll still be racing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gTeg90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to belittle the importance of the whole issue, but people have been fortelling the end of the world as we know it, just around the corner, for many many generations. Signed that the end of the world is near, you know, are everywhere. And they have been for a long time. Just seems to happen the opposite, as we always find a way to adapt.

I think we'll always be racing. May be electric and hydrogen powered, but we'll still be racing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Totally agree. Humans have always raced in one way or another, so I suspect we'll still be doing it 50, 100, 150 years from now. Its just hard to imagine what will be powering our race vehicles. I've heard all kinds of wacky things about scientists working on ways to actually "make" oil and stuff like that. It's going to be interesting to see how things play out.

 

When I can no longer afford to autocross a used stock-class autocross vehicle on street tires, then I'll quit racing. And even then theres still computer and video games.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gTeg90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I feel anything we can change about our lifestyles, even if it is a great sacrifice to us, that would harm their financial position and reduce their influence in the world is a good idea to me. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The reason why gas is three times as expensive in Europe is not because they pay three times as much for the oil (they buy it for the same price as the US), but because their gas tax makes all the difference. These countries have been doing exactly what you suggested above and as a result are much less dependent on outside oil. I am with you on this, but making this sacrifice could be a very hard sell to the rest of the US general public for the time being.