Somewhere in the last year I got as interested as anyone in the new K-series motors, and asked a little about them and that was about it.

When some of the SoCal guys squeezed the K into the DC2 I thought "ah, it's getting easier."

Now, with what are sure to be passing teething problems, I paid particular attention to Kiwi's ranting over the proscription on aftermarket parts like Rods in Honda-Challenge, and enjoyed the eternal universal counter-argument that goes something like this:

"If you wasn't tryin' to make so much power you wouldn't need better parts...THAT's how restrictive rules save money!!! You'z just don't Get It!"

To which the eternal universal rejoinder is: "No! YOU Don't Get It! This is RACING!"

These are the elements, and this is the reaction. It's almost like some law of nature is playing out as it always has and always will.

I don't really have a stake in this - though I hate to see nice people blowing up expensive motors. And I can sorta see both sides of the argument. You can too right?

But, did you ever notice how the IAEA has never found an illegal nuclear weapons program thru their own efforts?

Or, did you ever think about how the more activities you make illegal the more crime you have?

I see racing rules thru that sort of prism.


Scott, who's sure the K is a neat motor...pity about the shifter though...

 

Leave it to Scott to compare rules of competition to the argument for legalizing Mary Jane.


Andy - who has no stake in either issue.

 

What is racing?

What is contested?

The skill of the driver?

The bank of the owner?

The savvy of the engineer?

When Team A, lacking in one area, exerts itself more in it's areas of strength to compete with Team B with it's own strengths and weaknesses, we still call it racing don't we?

I understand the rationale for reducing the weighting on bank, however practically difficult.

To a much lesser degree I can understand reducing the weighting on engineering, though it often comes down to bank.

But to the degree you do that, you penalize the inferior driver, who quite naturally is reluctant to accept the idea of his inferiority, and is likely to want to apply himself harder to the rest of the effort. We'd still call him a racer wouldn't we?

Scott, who sees racing as man and machine in time...where time is that bandwidth thru which we push our total effort into the span of time encompassed by the race itself...much less interesting if it's just about the driver...

* Andy - How could you tell I was stoned again?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To which the eternal universal rejoinder is: "No! YOU Don't Get It! This is RACING!"
</TD></TR></TABLE>

But racing isn't just about going faster. It's about building a car that will live to finish, under a particular rule set. That's the challenge, and the fine line you have to walk. If you're building to series rules, you know that going in, and take it to the limit you think will last. This applies equally to HC and F1, and in both series some folks cross that line and blow up, be it a homebuilt H1 motor or a Williams/M-B F1 mill.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Geezer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But racing isn't just about going faster. It's about building a car that will live to finish, under a particular rule set. That's the challenge, and the fine line you have to walk. If you're building to series rules, you know that going in, and take it to the limit you think will last. This applies equally to HC and F1, and in both series some folks cross that line and blow up, be it a homebuilt H1 motor or a Williams/M-B F1 mill.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

What a completely over the top, off the wall, out of left field thing to say. You better be careful talking like that - you could get into an argument.

Scott, who, for the record, is For Colin Chapman but Against Berylium...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">* Andy - How could you tell I was stoned again? </TD></TR></TABLE>

You posted. (Oops, did I type that and forget to delete it? )

As an engineer who has momentarily diverged from driving a stock car, I am only just beginning to recognize the potential in applying my work knowledge to my hobby. In that case, I think racing should be 90% engineering, 9% money, and we should all use the same capuchin monkey as a driver.

Of course, I use my hobby to escape from my job so... if I bring my job into my hobby... I did wonder today if Dragon's Ridge needs an engineer on staff...

Andy - who doesn't really think Scott is a Bob Marley fan... most of the time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Geezer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or a Williams/M-B F1 mill.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

pssst, Williams uses BMW engines.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

pssst, Williams uses BMW engines.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, one of them Kraut engines, anyway. (sigh) I hate getting old.

 

GOD I wish everyone took the same constructive view as Scott to some of these issues.
We will probably publish a full post mortem on our K-20's death soon. Most of which I'm sure will confirm our original research findings regarding K-20 Rods?
There are a couple of things I can tell you right now that we know for sure...
1/ We did not have a missed shift.
2/ We did not have and oiling problem.
3/ We are running stock compression
4/ The cams we are using are very mild. Probably not much better than the Type R
5/ The K-20 Motors make the best power at about 7800 RPM Why would anyone want to run it to 9000?
The rest will come later with photo's of the carnage.
Rest assured, I have decided to keep my rantings under control. However we will be back with a new engine in the car... because we can! And we will give as much information as we can on making these things last, to anyone who askes for it
I just feel bad for the next poor schmuk who could have afforded decent rods... (Even the cheapest available are stronger than stock) but can't afford a new K-20!
The bitter taste of poor quality lasts long after the sweet taste of "cheaper racing" has gone.

Kiwi

 

I do agree with KIWI, but with this to add to it. If you use aftermarket RODS you must declare it and must get a 80-100lbs weight penalty for using aftermarket rods. This will even out the field ciz u can make more HP and not break the rods.

 

Don't worry K people. I've just struck a deal and now we can run aftermarket rods in H1. There is going to be a 300 lb weight penalty though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyHope &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't worry K people. I've just struck a deal and now we can run aftermarket rods in H1. There is going to be a 300 lb weight penalty though. </TD></TR></TABLE>

wow, now you only need to weigh what 2650? hahaha


I still think K20 rods are fine for stock k20a motors like shawn and andy have. One unfortunate weekend with 2 broken k20s doesnt sway my opinion.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyHope &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've just struck a deal and now we can run aftermarket rods in H1. There is going to be a 300 lb weight penalty though. </TD></TR></TABLE>
W0W... that is news.

B series with -nice- rods = time to watch out.

 

No offense to anyone intended, but I have a theory as to why H1 competitor Varo hasn't had an engine problem with his K-series engine like some of the others. I hear he has a five speed transmission...

 

Yes That is the secret 5 speed.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by keithg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No offense to anyone intended, but I have a theory as to why H1 competitor Varo hasn't had an engine problem with his K-series engine like some of the others. I hear he has a five speed transmission... </TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by ITAIntegraLS at 5:37 PM 6/11/2004

 

Well so far all is not lost...
From our wrecked K-20 We managed to salvage... 2 cam shafts, Valve springs and retainers, the oil pan, and the front cover. Everything else including the head is Junk!
Lets do it all over again just to see how much we dislike it!

Kiwi

 

Im sure there are a few bolts that can be salvaged as well KIWI!

 

that logic just doesn't sound right. So lets say a stock K20 can put out 255hp before it's a rolling granade (just a # for arguments sake). So, some people running K20s crank out 254hp and hope for the best. The engines fail, they complain that they need aftermarket rods so that they can make 255hp.

So NASA says fine everyone in H1 can run aftermarket rods. So now with these new rods you can make 305hp. All of a sudden the cars are faster and the engines are still blowing up. So NASA says fine, aftermarket pistons too. Again, faster cars, still blowing up. Ok, what's the next weak link. Next thing you know it's Speed WC and everyone is spending $30,000 on engines that last 1-2 races.

Bottom line is, if everyone has a set of rules to follow where's the disadvantage? Sure, you can gamble with stock parts and maybe win a race, or you could blow up, put in a backup engine or go home. Or you can build your engine to specs and run all year with it. Either way the guy with the most money always has an advantage. If K20's are so unreliable use a B-series.

Seems logical to me, but WTF do I know

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seems logical to me, but WTF do I know </TD></TR></TABLE>

Me too!!!

 

[QUOTE=nonsense]that logic just doesn't sound right. So lets say a stock K20 can put out 255hp before it's a rolling granade (just a # for arguments sake). So, some people running K20s crank out 254hp and hope for the best. The engines fail, they complain that they need aftermarket rods so that they can make 255hp.

You obviously know nothing about the K-20!!! That is biggest line of crap I've heard yet.
As long as we have to use the stock inlet manifold and stock throttle body (Which we agree with) You cant make much more Hp! Nobody seems to be listening... The Stock K-20 Rods are as soft as butter! They break in stock applications! NASA Already has a very good leveler of HP in place.

Kiwi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that logic just doesn't sound right. So lets say a stock K20 can put out 255hp before it's a rolling granade (just a # for arguments sake). So, some people running K20s crank out 254hp and hope for the best. The engines fail, they complain that they need aftermarket rods so that they can make 255hp.

So NASA says fine everyone in H1 can run aftermarket rods. So now with these new rods you can make 305hp. All of a sudden the cars are faster and the engines are still blowing up. So NASA says fine, aftermarket pistons too. Again, faster cars, still blowing up. Ok, what's the next weak link. Next thing you know it's Speed WC and everyone is spending $30,000 on engines that last 1-2 races.

Bottom line is, if everyone has a set of rules to follow where's the disadvantage? Sure, you can gamble with stock parts and maybe win a race, or you could blow up, put in a backup engine or go home. Or you can build your engine to specs and run all year with it. Either way the guy with the most money always has an advantage. If K20's are so unreliable use a B-series.

Seems logical to me, but WTF do I know </TD></TR></TABLE>

You are really oversimplifying it. Adding rods or pistons doesn't suddenly make the engine able to run an extra 50hp and then blow up. Mainly what you gain is a little more reliability from less stress in the reciprocating weight. You can spin the engine more safely at 9000 rpm, which people are doing on stock rods anyway. It's just more durable because you don't get the same metal fatigue from pumping the additional weight up and down. A few grams makes a huge difference when you are spinning that fast. You also get slightly more safety margin in the case of an accidental misshift.

When you have rods, you can't just up the compression to super high levels because you are going to be pounding your bearings as well, and as a result, those will not last long anyway. People are already doing that with CTR pistons and shaving the head so all you get is the durability improvement. Same goes for cams except now you are also stressing the valvetrain. So realistically in the end, with rods/pistons, you get a few hp from the reduced friction, reduced vibration, and a little more overhead against overrevs. Forged pistons are also more resistant to detonation which means more reliability. You can also increase compression or go with wilder cams, but then your bearings won't like you and you will go back down in reliability, but you will still be much more reliable than with stock rods/pistons.




Modified by Gansan at 4:42 PM 6/11/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that logic just doesn't sound right. So lets say a stock K20 can put out 255hp before it's a rolling granade (just a # for arguments sake). So, some people running K20s crank out 254hp and hope for the best. The engines fail, they complain that they need aftermarket rods so that they can make 255hp.

So NASA says fine everyone in H1 can run aftermarket rods. So now with these new rods you can make 305hp. All of a sudden the cars are faster and the engines are still blowing up. So NASA says fine, aftermarket pistons too. Again, faster cars, still blowing up. Ok, what's the next weak link. Next thing you know it's Speed WC and everyone is spending $30,000 on engines that last 1-2 races.

Bottom line is, if everyone has a set of rules to follow where's the disadvantage? Sure, you can gamble with stock parts and maybe win a race, or you could blow up, put in a backup engine or go home. Or you can build your engine to specs and run all year with it. Either way the guy with the most money always has an advantage. If K20's are so unreliable use a B-series.

Seems logical to me, but WTF do I know </TD></TR></TABLE>

far be it from me to understand the issues intimately, or even have any sort of 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand knowledge, but i believe KIWI's point is that some people are being conservative with their K20's and still throwing rods, and that it's only a matter of time before the bone stock guys throw theirs too. It then makes racing in H1 more expensive than it would be if aftermarket rods were allowed.

i can't say whether i agree with that or not, since i have no right to an opinion on this, but logically it makes sense for him to make this point. If the rule is affecting the whole field, it's fair, but if the rule prevents all teams from safeguarding their pricey investments, i think the only people benefitting are the crate motor sellers...I suppose the answer lies in changing the rule, or being creative.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

far be it from me to understand the issues intimately, or even have any sort of 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand knowledge, but i believe KIWI's point is that some people are being conservative with their K20's and still throwing rods, and that it's only a matter of time before the bone stock guys throw theirs too. It then makes racing in H1 more expensive than it would be if aftermarket rods were allowed.

i can't say whether i agree with that or not, since i have no right to an opinion on this, but logically it makes sense for him to make this point. If the rule is affecting the whole field, it's fair, but if the rule prevents all teams from safeguarding their pricey investments, i think the only people benefitting are the crate motor sellers...I suppose the answer lies in changing the rule, or being creative. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The rulemakers forced noone to run out and install a K-series engine. These racers did so out of their own desire to win.

Some people might say that they are now asking rulemakers to help protect their advantage. Others could speculate that some people have always been against the stock rod rule and may have the financial wherewithall to sacrifice a few engines to make a point.

I would hate to see the rules changed as a knee-jerk reaction to a couple of engines letting go.

 

The rules say you have to use the stock rods, right. What if you took the stock rods and strengthend them. Shot-peen and polish to make sure there are no cracks and then maybe use the cryogen method to harden the metal.

Just a suggestion!!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyHope &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't worry K people. I've just struck a deal and now we can run aftermarket rods in H1. There is going to be a 300 lb weight penalty though. </TD></TR></TABLE>
no thx, we'll keep out stock rods

thx tho