Greetings,

Thank you for taking the time to view my post. First I have been left with the job of finishing one of my good friends dreams. He passed away leaving a unfinished Type R project behind.

My buddy Bill was building a "track" car and loved to drive. Suspension wise the car is dialed in. He was talking to me about using forecd induction on the ITR and he never made up his mind to which to go with...turbo or supercharger.

So here is the goal: A somewhat reliable driving machine with 250+ bhp that is capable of hanging with the big boys on a large track, and tear up the twisties on a small road coarse.

So in other words I am in need of a Honda/Acura education. What works best, the in's and the out's, the do's and the don'ts. Any information is greatly appreciated. I am trying to finish one mans goals and maintain some sentimental value at the same time.

Many Thanks,
Jim

 

I'll say it nicely before people start hounding you about it. But read that link at the top of the forumn that says read before you ask questions... It has a lot of info your probably looking for in there.

 

I think NA the car can still put down some good 1/4 mile times... w/proper gearing (ie ATS/JDM final drive) and a few mods.

I always shy away from turbo because I can't deal w/downtime/rebuilding and unreliability.

However if those are your friends wishes to you for carrying them out.

 

What kinda of "track" are we talking about? drag or circuit?

You dont need to go supercharger or turbo to have a strong car on the track. But if thats the route you want to take, both can be reliable and safe as long as they are done right and TUNED safely. Turbo would probably be more popular, but there are supercharged ITRs around the run very well. But I dont think they are around 250hp (could be wrong). If you want that much power, youll probably want to go turbo. A turbo on a stock motor should easily be able to reach 250hp. Just read up on the steps, precautions, necessities needed to safely run a turbo setup and have fun in the name of your friend.

RIP to your friend.

Regards

 

I hope that I don't get hounded...I looked through that link and I really did not see what I was looking for.

What I am looking for is some personal experiences with forced induction on these engines. How much power can they typically produce and still be reliable. Are these motors strong. Which is easier to set up and tune, a turbo or supercharged ITR. Which kits are better SC = vortech or jackson, turbo = Drag, Greddy, etc.

Currently the ITR has a computer enhancement by comptech...once the car is forced induced that will have to change, I am assuming, do I need to change the ECU or will a bigger fuel pump, injectors, and a rising rate FPR do the trick.

See my pocket book is not as steep as my friend Bills was. I need to make the choice and make sue it is the correct one. A once and done deal. I have had many turbo-charged cars and one supercharged car. Although the turbo produced more power I was also more proned to breaking things with them. Will the ITR be the same way?

Many thanks,
Jim

 

Welcome to the board, and my condolences to your friend. I believe brake horsepower is measured at the crank. That said, 250bhp can be achieve with either mode of forced induction, or like others said, a good NA setup. I believe our drivetrain loss is around 15-17%, so my jrsc puts out 270-275bhp. I haven't tracked it yet this year, but it's been through a lot of hpde lappings days over the years without problem. A turbo will give you more room to grow, whereas a jrsc will pretty much limit you to around 300bhp.

 

I would be really happy with 275 - 300 bhp. I am probably going to be using the car more on the circuit. I recently was at an open track event where the vehicles were able to be on part of the oval and then came into the in-field for some nice turns. That is what I going to try and prep this car to handle.

Batoutahell
Would you say you are happy with the JRSC and the install and results were worth the investment?
How is the engine management handle and does the car run as smooth as it did before supercharging it?

 

I think the true spirit of the Type R is a lightweight chassis, NA FWD.

Big power (big torque) is great on the straights - but tends to overwhelm the grip of the front tires which are also trying to steer and brake the car. It requires very careful planning to design a FI Type R with the same throttle control as an NA Type R. Cooling is another issue as well.

A tuned built NA Type R can hang with pretty much anything at the track. On the big straightaways - you are going to get eaten up by the big displacement cars with longer gearing and double (or more) torque no matter what. This is where FI will give you an advantage over NA - but there is still the gearing issue to deal with - Type Rs are limited to about 145 mph - and there's lots of cars that can go waaay faster than that. If you have more than 200 ft/lbs of torque in a boosted Type R - traction in 1st, 2nd and some of 3rd will be very hard to control - even with slicks - even with a better LSD. Acceleration in 3rd and 4th will be stellar though (see Austrian Type Rs videos for evidence).

I think if you are going FI - then a small turbo is the way to go. I would aim for reliability and efficient cooling with moderate boost over all out power with high boost.

The superchargers that are available can be tuned to make 260 whp or more - but at about same $$ figure as turbo with tuning, intercooling etc. The Jackson Racing one is better than the Vortech imo.

 

Thank you Big Phat R. I am leaning more towards the SC side of this equation. What makes the Jackson SC better then the Vortech?

Thanks

 

The Vortec SC is said to produce big numbers and resembles the boost that a turbo would give. The Jackson Racing SC boost typically comes on sooner than a Vortec so you will have a lot more low end power grunt (torque.) The Vortec SC is really expensive, though it does have an aftercooler which is why it makes more HP than the Jackson.

As far as SC goes, my opinion (not based by personal experience) would be to go with the Jackson. Its 6 psi, which is considered very low boost and can be very reliable when tuned with Hondata. (www.hondata.com) Check out Hondata and their experience with Jackson, it should give you an idea of the power you should see from the charger. To get a higher boost (~10 psi) to reach 300 hp there a few tricks in the bag like using a CRV crank pully? There's a lot of info out there, try searching for Jackson and Vortec separately and see what comes up.

Good luck, and condolences to your friend.

 

my unbiased opinion .... the jrsc is great choice.. you will have instant power as if your car was NA.. and the low end torque is greater than if you were NA...

vortech is just lag and more lag..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by infulleffect &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What makes the Jackson SC better then the Vortech?
Thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

They are two different kinds of superchargers with differing power characteristics.

The JR is an Eaton type (twin screw) supercharger. This kind is driven off a pulley. Power is instantaneous - but will be limited in terms of top rpm due to the way air flows around them. Beyond a certain rpm say 8500 - their power kind of levels off (unlike a turbo). They also tend to warm up the intake charge a lot and thus you need to control fuel well so that detonation is not a problem.

The Vortech is a centrifugal type of supercharger. AFAIK they do not make one for the Type R (GSR only) due to the compression ratio of the Type R. Their main disadvantage is the narrow powerband they provide - which is not the best for driving at roadcourse - bigger powerband is more useful in traffic too.

Bang for the buck? I would go with the JR.

I think JR has pretty good technical support and more people have used it and tuned with it vs. Vortech.

For a car with a rev range as high as the Type R and high compression ratio - I think you are better off with an Eaton type.

For cars with a lower redline and commensurate narrower powerband e.g. Mustang - Vortechs work well.

 

even with the "horror" stories of people talking crap about the jrsc.. I have lots of respect for it. I loved mine.. I seriously hate my car now without it. it feels super slow.. I got used to the torque and now I feel naked without it..

And it doesn't really die top end like people say. It just keeps pulling.

an itr motor would be the best for the JRSC.. perfect compression for big power out of the jrsc

 

If you want to go boost, a turbo will give you far more options and scalability.

However, if this is more of a circuit car, the JRSC or, preferably, a NA build up would be better in my opinion. I really don't care for boost on track in most cars (FWD in particular) and absolutely prefer NA in that environment.

I could deal with a RWD boosted car on the track though.

Condolences to your friend and for carrying on with his dream for the car.

 

Thank you all so much. I have gained lots of knowledge and although the NA set up might be the way to go, I really don't want to take apart a motor that is running so superbly...that is why I am leaning towards the bolt on boost.

MADEINIRAQ: I am seriously interested in your set up if it is still available...I think I sent you an email so we can discuss things further.


Modified by infulleffect at 4:36 PM 6/8/2004

 

There's an ITR on here that burned a Ferrari in a straight . Turbo'd of course . (not sure who the guy is)

&lt;--- has bad memory

 

i believe that was austrian type-R

 

I don't really want to burn a Ferrari, but tearing it up at a track event would be nice and surprising a few Ferrari's would be nice.

 

I am pretty much set on searching out a JRSC kit. If anyone knows of someone or a place that has a good deal on the kit please let me know.

Thank you,
Jim

 

Has anyone recieved an error that said the thread was locked?

What causes that?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by infulleffect &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I really don't want to take apart a motor that is running so superbly.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you plan on running more than 6-8psi you may have to open her up to lower the compression to avoid detonation.

The Legacy begins.

 

I think the hondata and new 440 injectors will take care of that...at least it is suppose to.

As of right now it looks like all I can afford is the 6 psi kit. Plus that might be better for the track anyways.

Thanks for the info though.

 

tru

 

It's admirable that you're finishing your friends ITR where he left off.

 

Ive been dealing with honda motors for about 10 years and ive learned that its not cheap $$$$ going to boost. If you want to know the truth about boosting on a honda engine then ill tell you. A stock honda (petty much all models) can handel about 9-10 pounds of boost, going any higher and youll have to upgrade your fuel managment system (like cpu). If not you risk the chance of blowing your motor.Stock honda engine were not ment to be turbochaged but are so fun when they are. If you dont have alot of cash but want boost real bad then try building your own turbo kit for around $1500, but i warn you that boost is is like crack cocaine. once you have a little your going to want more and more. also having turbo is very high maintains.
anyquestions let me know