I just got my alignment done today. My cars suspension is stock. So I take it to get an alignment. They told me since my tires are 195/50/15 on GSR blades (low profile) that they will do the best they can. When I drive it back I notice it drifts to the left. Another problem I have is my steering wheel is crooked (it was crooked to begin with because the place where I got my car had taken off the steering wheel). So I take a look at the alignment spec sheet and it says "1998 Integra Type R". What do you guys think the problem is? Here are my specs:

 

Holy crap who the hell was doing that work?? Yeah they put it within spec, but it's still not very good. Toe looks pretty bad still, and what the hell is up with your camber? Stock suspension with 0 camber on FL, negative on FR, POSITIVE camber on RL and negative camber on RR?? Dang man it sure sounds like that car has some frame or at least some suspension damage

Also tire size should not affect alignment, at least not by much if any. Take it somewhere else, or take it back there and tell them to set the toe to 0 both front and rear.

I wonder if they even bothered set the rear alignment first before the front, like what should be done for a 4-wheel alignment.

 

that toe should be ZERO...i hit a 2 inch median going 60 miles an hour, and then lowered my car...and they still got my toe to zero

the median thing..yea, it was raining, couldnt really see the road cause rochester roads are mirrors in the rain for some reason..i hate it, i can never tell what lane im in...anyway, long story short, was trying to get off at an exit...didnt see the little cement divider [thought it was just stripes, cause it was painted] and railed it, blew two stock tires car drove crooked, toe was so bad i wore out the tires on my rims in like 3 weeks...and they got it back to 0.0

 

So just tell them to set the toe to zero and my car should run straight without drifting off to the left. Is there anything else I should tell them to change? They kept repeating that since I have low profile tires that they will do the best they can...I don't know what they mean't by that.

 

low pro's have nothing to do with your alignment (in theory). on every alignment i've done on my integra, and friend's hondas, i've always gotten the toe to zero out, no problems. however, in your case, even though you have negative toe on both sides, since the toe is EQUAL on both sides, your toe isn't causing your pull. it is camber related. on the bright side, you have practically zero setback and thrust angle, meaning you probably have NO suspension damage. get that camber closer together, and the caster will probably follow. it looks like when the tech changed your camber, it affected your caster.
cliffnotes: fix camber and eliminate pull, fix toe so you don't wear your tires and so your steering response will improve a tiny bit. (more positive caster, closer to the 2.2 degree limit will also help steering response, and returnability after turns, for a sportier feel.)
just a lil something i picked up at school
any questions, let me know
- JC

 

ur camber angles are really off for stock. u will notice a drift to the left becuase of the positive angle on ur left side. Think about it, u have more contact on ur left side than ur right, hence the left drift...

as for ur steering wheel being off-centered, u need to get it realigned... where did u take it? it seems so unprofessionally done... i always trust the honda dealer or firestone...

another tip is to check ur tire pressures.. they must be equal or ur car will drift to the side w. less air...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Clean91GS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">low pro's have nothing to do with your alignment (in theory). on every alignment i've done on my integra, and friend's hondas, i've always gotten the toe to zero out, no problems. however, in your case, even though you have negative toe on both sides, since the toe is EQUAL on both sides, your toe isn't causing your pull. it is camber related. on the bright side, you have practically zero setback and thrust angle, meaning you probably have NO suspension damage. get that camber closer together, and the caster will probably follow. it looks like when the tech changed your camber, it affected your caster.
cliffnotes: fix camber and eliminate pull, fix toe so you don't wear your tires and so your steering response will improve a tiny bit. (more positive caster, closer to the 2.2 degree limit will also help steering response, and returnability after turns, for a sportier feel.)
just a lil something i picked up at school
any questions, let me know
- JC</TD></TR></TABLE>

You forgot that camber is not adjustable. For them to be so far off side-to-side like that definitely indicates some damage somewhere.

Try your best not to just do a band-aid fix with a camber kit, unless the frame is damaged and you're REALLY intent on keeping your car. Otherwise if damaged suspension pieces is the culprit, definitely replace those parts.

 

Someone help me out. What am I basically going to ask when I go back to the place where I got an alignment. Like the thing about my camber being so off (damage), etc. Make me some cliff notes on what to say when I go there. In a bulleted list of the problems.

 

who ever did the job on yer car did a **** poor job. one thing is the fact that u have gsr rims wont throw off your allignment. second of all they put in the specs for a different car. i wouldnt recomend goin there again because the person who did that allignment for you is a straight dumb ***.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FREAKquency04 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who ever did the job on yer car did a **** poor job. one thing is the fact that u have gsr rims wont throw off your allignment. second of all they put in the specs for a different car. i wouldnt recomend goin there again because the person who did that allignment for you is a straight dumb ***.</TD></TR></TABLE>

His gsr rims have nothing to do with this
2nd, it doesn't matter if they put an RS or R specs, TOE = 0 for our cars.

The only think I can agree with you is the last statement.

 

toe equals zero for any car...correct?

i cant imagine any car company selling a car saying hey! ours wears out your tires the fastest!

 

bump for a good thread.

What is a REAL good alignment for him.

Toe should be 0.0 front and rear.
What about castor and others?

I would like to know this since I have a dropped car and it would help me and him.

 

ya, and what kinda numbers would i be looking for in my DA9 dropped 2 inches on 205-40-17's?

and when getting an allignment, is it better to put on the original rims on? or can i leave my aftermarkets on?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96integra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">toe equals zero for any car...correct?

i cant imagine any car company selling a car saying hey! ours wears out your tires the fastest!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was going to say 0 Toe-in for all cars but I was doubtful.

Camber of about 0-3 deg will not wear out your tires, although EXCESSIVE camber can.

On average, tires that are not rate too high and are not too sticky have a life span of avg 50-60k miles (alignment done, scheduled tire rotations), whereas high performance, high rated tires last have an avg life span of 25-40k miles.

NRg

 

heres what the Acura values are:
(item: min --&gt; max, nominal)

<u>FRONT (L&R)</u>
Camber: -1.50 --&gt; +0.50, -0.50
Caster: +0.17 --&gt; +2.17, +1.17
Toe: -0.04 --&gt; 0.04, 0.00

Cross camber/caster = 0.00
Total toe: -0.08 --&gt; +0.08, 0.00

<u>REAR (L&R)</u>
Camber: -2.00 --&gt; 0.00, -0.75
Toe: +0.02 --&gt; +0.08, +0.04

Total toe: +0.04 --&gt; +0.16, +0.08

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96integra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">toe equals zero for any car...correct?

i cant imagine any car company selling a car saying hey! ours wears out your tires the fastest!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Changing the toe, either out or in, can aid in things like straight-line stability, turn-in, etc. I can't remember which does which, but it does have an affect on handling and overall feel of driving the car. The trick is to find what suits you best and still has good tire wear characteristics.

 

bring it back!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ..::91TEG-G2::.. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ya, and what kinda numbers would i be looking for in my DA9 dropped 2 inches on 205-40-17's?

and when getting an allignment, is it better to put on the original rims on? or can i leave my aftermarkets on?</TD></TR></TABLE>


can anyone help me.. please?

bump

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ..::91TEG-G2::.. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


can anyone help me.. please?

bump</TD></TR></TABLE>

Logic would dictate to have it aligned with the tires you ride on most of the time, although it shouldn't really make a difference.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

My steering wheel is straight when I am driving through the city. But as soon as I hit freeway speeds, the steering wheel gets off centered. Then for the rest of the day, it is off centered, even if I'm driving slower (just less obvious). When it gets off centered, the steering wheel points a little to the right.

I did my own alignment. With my setup (MacStruts w/ Camber plates)..which means I adjust my camber on top, instead of an UCA like you guys...I have a LOT of negative camber (due to the design of my coilovers).

My camber up front is this:
Driver: -1.951 deg. Pass: -2.054 deg.

My toe up front:
Driver: 0mm Pass. 1/64" toe out or 0.5mm

I got lazy when adjusting the passenger side toe...especially when the helms says +/-3mm anyway in toe allowance to be in spec.

Is my difference in camber between the Driver side and Passenger side significant enough to cause this pull? I'm kinda lazy to try to adjust the camber again (I set my camber by setting the struts to the end of the camber plates, and pulled the hub out since there's a little play at the crash bolts...basically i just set it as close to 0 camber as possible and this is the camber I got). If I were to change the camber I will have to adjust the toe settings again. DIY alignments take forever!

I understand you guys don't deal w/ macstruts, but the diff. between MS vs DW is negligible here, since it's mostly alignment problems so I would greatly appreciate any input/help you guys can give me. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Your camber difference side-to-side is less than 0.1 degrees, which is awesome because ideally you want it to be the same on both sides, and you are very close. You can easily run -2 deg. camber and not have any tire wear problems as long as that toe is kept at 0. However, since you do have that much camber, I would get it checked on a laser machine to make sure the toe is really where it's supposed to be. If the toe is off too much, that camber + toe will eat those tires with a quickness.

Last time mine was done my front end was like -2.3 on one side and -2.5 on the other side or something like that.

 

Nope, camber won't make the car track off-center, toe is what does that, and occasionly caster but not as much as toe.

 

I went back to the alignment place today and they told me if they put my toe to zero my tires will wear out faster, so they refused to do it. They said it is suppose to be like that. They also told me that something is wrong with my rack and pinion, that it is bent. Another question I have is does it matter if the specs are from a TYPE-R instead of a GSR?



Modified by phayzeone at 3:28 AM 6/2/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nope, camber won't make the car track off-center, toe is what does that, and occasionly caster but not as much as toe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Camber WILL make a car pull but not with the a 0.2° difference side to side. If you had say 1° difference in the front, the car will track to the side with LESS negative camber.

example front left -1.5°, front right -2.5°... car will pull to the left.

Ask any alignment tech, they'll back me up. Hint: the reason I out on my camber kit... both fronts at ~-1°, now tracks straight.

 

It is possible that you can have a toe reading of 0 in front and still track off-center. Imagine if both tires point straight ahead, and then you move one tire towards toe-out, and the other towards toe-in, the same amount. The total toe will still read 0 but it won't track straight.

The Type R does have a little more negative camber as spec, but that's mostly from the fact that the suspension just sits lower than non-R's. I'm not sure of any toe differences between them.

 

Cross camber is off - You can do nothing about that since you probably have stock upper A arms.

Toe - needs to be set at 0 on both sides.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">stumpy: Maybe you can help me out then. My steering wheel is a little bit off centered to the right.

My setup up front:
CAMBER:
Driver: -1.951 deg. Pass: -2.054 deg.

TOE:
Driver: 0mm Pass. 1/64" toe out or 0.5mm

The cause I assume to be either steering wheel wasn't PERFECTLY centered when I aligned it, or the 0.1 degree difference is causing it to pull to the left, therefore causing the need to compensate by turning the steering wheel to the right a little bit. The toe doesn't sound to be my problem since the toe out on Passenger side should cause my car to pull to the right (off cenetered wheel to the left).

I'm just confused now with what people are telling me in this thread. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The 0.1° difference in camber will make little to no difference... the precision of the alignment machine is not that tight.

i.e. you will not get multiple reading within 0.1° of each other. This is when you drive the car onto the rack make the measurements then drive off and remeasure. I would say your camber readings are just fine.

Centered steering wheel can easily be fixed without the use of an alignment rack. To correct this you need to lengthen one tie-rod end and shorten the other the corresponding amount. Do in 1 turn increments then 0.5 turn increments to fine tune.

Now for the pulling... why didn't the shop zero the toe. I think there maybe something they are not telling you. The 1/64" toe out on the passenger side should cause a pull to the right. Your car pulling to the left sounds like they tied to counteract something in the alignment that would cause the car to pull to the left. just guessing here though... without the alignment sheet can't really say for sure. The toe out on the right side will make turn-in much more crisp... do you find a difference in turn-in one direction or the other.

Another thing a wise tech told me was to measure the distance on each side center to center of the wheels. If you get a shorter distance on one side the car will tend to pull to that side.

Post your alignment sheet if you have it, I think we'll be able to help you get your car tracking straight.