Ok hears the deal. ive spent the last few days dealing with techs that don't know much about honda's and tech who only know one way to use their machines. and don't want to mess with a lowered honda.

so my problem is they won't align my car due to a list of problems, that arn't really problems.
things on the list
1. Both front upper control arms need dissasembled and reworked.
(i have adjustable camber kit. and the moron's don't know what to do with it to correct my camber)
2. Claims i have a bad Right LCA wouldn't tell me front or back. or whats actually wrong with it!
(non of the LCA's are bent or disfigured. i think because i have GSR rear controlarms they freaked because their not stock.)
3. Rear Springs not properly seated in upper shock mounts.
(they put my car on a lift, and because i lowered the car with skunk2 coilovers the springs are not preloaded, and "float" and when u set the car back down. u have to make sure the spring corretly lines up inside of the upper mount. They just set the car down. and disscoved it out of place. and wanted to charge me because it was't stock)
4. The don't want to do the alignment because they can't get the car back to OEM specs.
(its lowered. just get it close so my steering tightens back up and my tires won't wear down in a week)

i got these responces from a few local dealers, and mechanics shops. so i think im on my own. and i know this is not a wise idea. but im running out of options.

i need to know how to adjust the front tirods to re angle the direction the wheels point. when my drivers tire is strait ahead my passengers is angled out. when my passengers tire is strait, my drivers is angled out. (aproximatly .5-1") nothing major my my steering is loose because of this and my tires wear much faster.

so do i need to separate one side of the outer tirod ends to adjust the direction, or can i just loosen the nuts and turn the tirod its self without poping the joint?

thanks for any help

 

also any pictures of what to adjust would be great.

thanks

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bmcc72 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> just loosen the nuts and turn the tirod its self without poping the joint?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's correct.

 

good i didn;t think alignment shops could charge so little if they were poping a joint. any one have some pictures on this. also i gess im ganna try and find some strait long poles and attatch them to my wheels to measure and see if the front is the same distance from tire to tire as the rear of the tire is.
_____
i____i so they end up like this instead of this

____
i____\ this is over exagerated but its what my tires look like, if that makes sense. so by using string or strait metal rods i hop to get my tires closer to strait on as possable. and i hope this tightens my steering up.

any pics showing what to adjust on the tirods would be great.

 

anyone else have some info?

 

Search the type-r forum for home-made alignment rack. A while ago (probably a year) someone posted how to make a home made alignment rack out of string and jackstands and said it came pretty close to spec. Just an idea. Im not real sure about how to actually adjust the settings, this is just a way to get the spec's close. Good Luck

 

find a level floor

then put your steering wheel straight and keep it that way and put something that will not allow it to move

then take a piece of string and tape it to the back of the rear wheel center of the tire then take the other end and tape it to the front wheel center of the tire towards the front.

what you just did was made a line from rear to front and what you need to do is make the string straight and not allow the wheel to deflect the string.. so if it was you would see that the string only touches 1 side of the tire or both but on the other only one side.

in the end you will need all the tires to touch the string and at that point your toe is straight. NOW make sure all your tires are inflated to the same and correct PSI.

 

today i adjusted the front just by "eyeballing it" and it made a world of differance. my tires no longer squel around every corner. and my steering tightend up alot. im going to try the string idea. but im going to use 4 jack stands and place then past the bumpers to try and get a more acuret setup. this would depend on if the string would hit the bumpers or anything like that. so it might have to go below the front bumper and rear bumper. and then measure the the distance from side to side, and see how close i am just by "eyeballing" this would creat a perfect rectangle around my car. thanks for the replys. this helped alot!

 

yes he aligning it to the rear wheels, but what if the rear wheels arent pointing straight ahead. this is a big problem area for 88-00 civics because of the rear trailing arm bushings always going bad and it will usually affect toe a significant amount.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BatuKing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">find a level floor

then put your steering wheel straight and keep it that way and put something that will not allow it to move

then take a piece of string and tape it to the back of the rear wheel center of the tire then take the other end and tape it to the front wheel center of the tire towards the front.

what you just did was made a line from rear to front and what you need to do is make the string straight and not allow the wheel to deflect the string.. so if it was you would see that the string only touches 1 side of the tire or both but on the other only one side.

in the end you will need all the tires to touch the string and at that point your toe is straight. NOW make sure all your tires are inflated to the same and correct PSI.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Toe = tires pointing straight ahead [] [] not \\ \\

Caster = if the wheels is on the center line axis point of the suspension (move forward or backward) for example... the front tires if centered up in the wheelwell and not moved closer to the bumper or to the door and fender area.

Camber = whether the wheel is centered up straight, pointing inward to the engine compartment or outward toward the road.

Tire wear is affected mainly by toe and camber.
What causes a car to pull will be all three. (toe, camber, and caster)

Camber is usually only adjustable with a camber kit. There are sometimes when you can use washers to adjust it. Toe is always adjustable. Caster is hard to adjust and will probably need new replacement parts because it is adjustable only so much.

If its a 88-00 civic the front toe is adjusted with a 14mm wrench and a 19mm to break the locking nut loose. It is located on the steering rack on both ends (tie rods). The rear is adjusted with a small prybar or a really big screwdriver that won't bend when a lot of force is put on it. The locking nut for the rear is on the rear trailing arm and its a 14mm (could be a 17mm).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 5w20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes he aligning it to the rear wheels, but what if the rear wheels arent pointing straight ahead. this is a big problem area for 88-00 civics because of the rear trailing arm bushings always going bad and it will usually affect toe a significant amount.

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Given I know about alignment angles I am aware of what your saying but you really need to know if his toes was off then the method I told you will work.. Gven you keep your wheel straight it will put the rear toe in effect. so using pictures heres how my string method works

Say your car has a thrust angle of say 3 degrees in general

| |

/ /

so imagine if you attached a string on the back side of the right side tire and attached it to the front center of the tire.. you will see deflection on both sides right? so only when you have the toe and thrust angle straight you can have the strings touching the sides of the tires on both sides stright. the object is to have the string touch all 4 corners of the tires (2 on each tire) evenly.

so it would look like this

| |

| |

so now your toe is straight and unless you did this with the wheel not straight you should dog track at all. If you ever take a car to a professional who has been doing alignments for years the old fashoned way. (using bubble gauges for caster and camber) you will see him use a leveled floor and string for toe..

I have used this method and it usually comes in by 1/4 of a degree accurate..

Now keep in mind most people that use computers to align cars still make mistakes.. infact if you dont calibrate the machines and attach them correctly you will get wrong readings.. where the string and bubble gauge method only fall back is a leveled floor.

 

I think for the most part belle tire is a bad place to go for anything, but they deal with aligning lowered cars on a daily basis, it might be worth checking out. That is if there is one around you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My camber up front is this:
Driver: -1.951 deg. Pass: -2.054 deg.

My toe up front:
Driver: 0mm Pass. 1/64" toe out or 0.5mm

My alignment machine at work is setup in degrees so i cant tell you how that will turn out.

Is my difference in camber between the Driver side and Passenger side significant enough to cause this pull?

It can be, but it will also depend on caster. Bad tires (internally split belts) can cause a pull too. This usually happens with cheap tires.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Caster can't be changed on the stock setup. However with my coilovers they can...the more negative camber you dial in (closer to the engine bay), it changes the caster. However, since I adjusted them as close to the fender as possible, any difference in caster shouldn't exist.

My tires are in good condition. Stock Michilins ($130+ is not cheap to me) w/ 20k miles...a lot of tread, even wear.

Can your alignment machine get a lowered car on it? I have around six inches of clearance on my front lip.</TD></TR></TABLE>

1st of all, caster can not be adjusted. caster is the forward or reverse of the tire. camber also can not be adjsuted its the way your car sits, "/ \" when you see cars like that(front angle view). the camber should be the same, so yes having the passenger and driver side will of course give you pull. that much of a negative camber will wear your tires out from the inside because thats where all the weight is sitting. normal spec on camber is around -0.5.
if your tires arent rotational, you can have a shop flip them around and put them back on the rim so you have more tread on the inner line.
2nd of all it doesnt matter what alignment machine there is, you can get your car on it if they want to get your car on it. get a set of wooden ramps. its a pain in the *** when dropped cars come into the shop, but we still have to do them. we get wooden ramps, people lift the lip a bit, while 2 more people walk along with the car lifting at the fenders to gain more clearance. you cant goto a shitty shop and expect them to work on a modified car. think of your car as a corvette in a way, its low just like one it wont make the ramp and thats how you have to get it up there.

the only thing that can be adjusted is the toe, the "\ |" (top view of tires). the toe on one of the tires must be off to make you pull at highway speeds.
ive seen the homemade alignment rack, but in my opinion its not for exact measurements. the measurements are so small they cant be really eyeballed to exact.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> However with my coilovers they can...the more negative camber you dial in (closer to the engine bay), it changes the caster. However, since I adjusted them as close to the fender as possible, any difference in caster shouldn't exist.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Uh. explain how this changes caster? Caster is the angle between the upper ball join and the lower ball joint so your telling me by lowering your car with coilovers (which i know changes the Camber angle ) how are you change caster? the ball joints will stay the same because you are not moving the upper or lower control arm left or right(as viewed from the face of the rim/wheel) Now your prob thinking that caster is a caculated angle on the computer alignment machines and figured that if you change camber (which is takes a reading of to determine caster) that it should change? well sorry its not a direcly related angle unless you change caster then camber changes. Now according to what I read on your other post you said you have an adjustable plate on the top of the strut hat? SO yours moves from side to side then front to back to do both camer and caster adjustments?
On honda's you really cannot change caster unless you replace the upper or lower control arms with adjustable linkages. Besides why do you want to change caster? the more you go the harder it is to steer (if you dont have a PS rack) and the lower you go (towards the front) the more the car shimmys at higher speeds.

 

man ive been looking for this forever, w00t

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I don't know which is which between positive caster and negative caster, but with my setup the more negative camber you dial in using the camber plates, the more the strut will be positioned like this // with the top of the strut angled towards the middle of the car.


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Ok you do realize that in order to change caster you have to move the Control arms either left or right. Now given your strut is not connected to the upper control arm and the bottom of the strut is connected to the lower control arm (which doesnt move because the piviot point of your strut is the lower control arm).. all your doing is moving the angle and position of the strut which has nothing to do with CASTER

your // is designed to allow either toe in turns or to compensate for toe. Not caster.. infact do this.. go put it on a machine and see if caster changed.. I doubt it will

 

ok if you want to know why your steering wheel is off find a machine that can measure SAI

If you can then take that with the camber settings and you will see where your going.. infact do you have toe in or out? also any body damage to the car?

 

Fixing the toe, is very simple. park the car at a level ground. Do not remove the tires.
-Loosen the lock nuts on the tire rod ends
-measure the inner distance from a point on the front end lip of the rim (the farthest point is more accureate)
-measure the inner distance from a point in the back end lip of the rim (the farthest point is more accurate)
the front end distance should be atleast 1/16" shorter than the back end. Meaning a "toe-in". Because as the car moves forward, the front tires tend to toe-out. You can adjust it by turning the tie-rod.
Afther tightening it up, measure again just to be sure.

I have done this with my car and works perfectly. I had it done a year ago and my tires are perfect.

nice set up BTW!

 

Looks like you have a modified Strut system so you can change the caster and camber and toe on your setup.

If your having steering problems check all angles toe, camber, caster, SAI, Included angle, thrust angle, then check the conditon of all bushings and ball joints. Also check the tires by rotating them.

 

The car's alignment changes when you sit in the driver's seat.
Put a friend in the seat and do the alignment again.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackdc5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Caster can't be changed on the stock setup. However with my coilovers they can...the more negative camber you dial in (closer to the engine bay), it changes the caster. However, since I adjusted them as close to the fender as possible, any difference in caster shouldn't exist.

Caster can be adjusted but slightly. There was a bullitin on 03 accords becuase a lot of them had pulling problems (because of bad alignment) so we had to adjust the caster on some of them. Caster is adjustable differently on different models. On some you move the sub-frame and on others you use special bolts.

My tires are in good condition. Stock Michilins ($130+ is not cheap to me) w/ 20k miles...a lot of tread, even wear.

Michelins are good tires. They usually come stock on hondas and are great.

Can your alignment machine get a lowered car on it? I have around six inches of clearance on my front lip.

Yes we do. We put some 2X4's right before the ramp so we can get them on there. I got my civic on there and its lowered about 2 inches. We also can get my buddies civic which is lowered almost 3 inches but we had to takeoff his front lip.</TD></TR></TABLE>