Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away...
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Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away...
<U>93 H23A1 Block</U>
89mm ductile iron sleeves
H22 Crank - Offset ground from 2.008 to 1.890 increasing the stroke to 93.7mm, re heat treated, crio frozen and balanced.
Eagle rods - part number CRS5862A3D
Custom AEBS/Ross Pistons - Custom cloverleafed dome, strutted, hollow dome 89mm pistons with .708 pins and a button support rail.
Honda bearings - Coated and Crio frozen
Pro Drive oil pump gear - Crio frozen
<U>98 H22A4 Head</U>
AEBS - Full race prepped head (Cloverleafed Combustion chambers, reshaped intake/exhaust ports)
Supertech Valves - Swain Tech coted
IB Valvetrain - Swain Tech coated
JUN H Series cams - Crio frozen
Custom Rick Solis IM - Tuned and tapered runners and plenum with built in velocity stacks
SMSP Header
2331cc's with a 1.589 r/s ratio
This, if I end up doing it.. Will be in a daily driven 98 prelude.
Let me know what you think, critique away!
Modified by Rick Solis at 6:50 PM 6/22/2004
89mm ductile iron sleeves
H22 Crank - Offset ground from 2.008 to 1.890 increasing the stroke to 93.7mm, re heat treated, crio frozen and balanced.
Eagle rods - part number CRS5862A3D
Custom AEBS/Ross Pistons - Custom cloverleafed dome, strutted, hollow dome 89mm pistons with .708 pins and a button support rail.
Honda bearings - Coated and Crio frozen
Pro Drive oil pump gear - Crio frozen
<U>98 H22A4 Head</U>
AEBS - Full race prepped head (Cloverleafed Combustion chambers, reshaped intake/exhaust ports)
Supertech Valves - Swain Tech coted
IB Valvetrain - Swain Tech coated
JUN H Series cams - Crio frozen
Custom Rick Solis IM - Tuned and tapered runners and plenum with built in velocity stacks
SMSP Header
2331cc's with a 1.589 r/s ratio
This, if I end up doing it.. Will be in a daily driven 98 prelude.
Let me know what you think, critique away!
Modified by Rick Solis at 6:50 PM 6/22/2004
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From: Houston, texas, usa
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (Rick Solis)
No complaints here, just some questions. Compression ratio, ECU, fuel system? Sounds like you have the makings of a torquey motor.
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From: right near da Beach!!! Boi !
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (Rick Solis)
s0unds go0d...but wha tuning UTENSILS are you going to use? what ecu? HONDATA 
but damn your list sounds like you building a BIG FAT TORQUE MONSTER...have funn! Hopefully it works out. Pics, are the best! post some!
but damn your list sounds like you building a BIG FAT TORQUE MONSTER...have funn! Hopefully it works out. Pics, are the best! post some!
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From: East Village, NYC
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (Kal)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kal »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sounds like you better watch out for revs. notoriously bad for the h23vtec combo.</TD></TR></TABLE>
it's an H23 block but he's using a modified H22a crank, it's not an h23 VTEC..and if you read his rod/stroke ratio is 1.59:1
it's an H23 block but he's using a modified H22a crank, it's not an h23 VTEC..and if you read his rod/stroke ratio is 1.59:1
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Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (SKDRCR)
to sum it up...
The rod journal is offset ground to move the centerline of the rod journal further from the centerline of the main journal. Result is increased stroke....
Heres a better example...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One of the methods used to increase stroke with a stock crank, is called offset grinding. By offset grinding the rod journal you move the centerline of the rod journal away from or toward the centerline of the main journal. This will result in increased or decreased stroke. Figure 3 above illustrates the case we are interested in, the rod journal is ground in a manner to increase stroke. Keep in mind that when the rod journal is offset ground it now has a smaller diameter. The motor will require special connecting rods with correctly sized bearing bores. Additionally, if the rod journal is ground too much it becomes weak. Unless you add material and regrind, you can only stroke a motor so far with a stock crank</TD></TR></TABLE>
The rod journal is offset ground to move the centerline of the rod journal further from the centerline of the main journal. Result is increased stroke....
Heres a better example...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One of the methods used to increase stroke with a stock crank, is called offset grinding. By offset grinding the rod journal you move the centerline of the rod journal away from or toward the centerline of the main journal. This will result in increased or decreased stroke. Figure 3 above illustrates the case we are interested in, the rod journal is ground in a manner to increase stroke. Keep in mind that when the rod journal is offset ground it now has a smaller diameter. The motor will require special connecting rods with correctly sized bearing bores. Additionally, if the rod journal is ground too much it becomes weak. Unless you add material and regrind, you can only stroke a motor so far with a stock crank</TD></TR></TABLE>
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From: Rochster, NY, Grubby Nettles
nasty setup. i wish i were a little more knowledgeable to make a noteworthy addition to this thread, BUT from what i do understand, it looks like it will be a strong motor. good luck!
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From: northern DRUNKit, ma
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (Rick Solis)
i see your going with a custom crank rods and pistons..
what number are you using for your deck height and piston to deck
looks like a crazy setup. but the fact that you are grinding down the stock rod journals means they will be smaller, and your buying premade eagle rods that probably arn't designed for your smaller journals. where are you going to get the custom thicker bearing. which brings me to another point:
due to the fact that the journal size is going to be smaller , that means that you now have less area to contact and distribute the forces on the rod journal and i fear that you will spin rod bearings. similiar to how the h23 has the smaller 50mm crank journals and spin bearings because they are just to small and can't take the higher speeds and forces when people start reving them higher. notice how honda increased its main sizes from 50 to 55 mm 98+ and the 5th gen prelude now has a higher redline.
i guess what im getting at is journalsize is going to play a big role in what you engine can withstand.
edit :
i would <U>LOVE</U> to see how they machine this and keep it perfectly round
what number are you using for your deck height and piston to deck
looks like a crazy setup. but the fact that you are grinding down the stock rod journals means they will be smaller, and your buying premade eagle rods that probably arn't designed for your smaller journals. where are you going to get the custom thicker bearing. which brings me to another point:
due to the fact that the journal size is going to be smaller , that means that you now have less area to contact and distribute the forces on the rod journal and i fear that you will spin rod bearings. similiar to how the h23 has the smaller 50mm crank journals and spin bearings because they are just to small and can't take the higher speeds and forces when people start reving them higher. notice how honda increased its main sizes from 50 to 55 mm 98+ and the 5th gen prelude now has a higher redline.
i guess what im getting at is journalsize is going to play a big role in what you engine can withstand.
edit :
i would <U>LOVE</U> to see how they machine this and keep it perfectly round
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Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (prelittlelude)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i see your going with a custom crank rods and pistons..
what number are you using for your deck height and piston to deck</TD></TR></TABLE>
8.655
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">looks like a crazy setup. but the fact that you are grinding down the stock rod journals means they will be smaller, and your buying premade eagle rods that probably arn't designed for your smaller journals. where are you going to get the custom thicker bearing</TD></TR></TABLE>
The journals are going to be ground from the stock H series diameter down to the stock B series diameter... The journal widths between the 2 are identical, the only difference between the 2 is the actual journal bore or BE width on the rod (H Series = 2.008, B series = 1.890)... With the H crank rod journal being ground to the pin size of the B crank rod journals the B series rods will bolt right up using B series bearings.
i guess what im getting at is journalsize is going to play a big role in what you engine can withstand[/QUOTE]
got it covered
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would <U>LOVE</U> to see how they machine this and keep it perfectly round
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just about every machine shop that does crankshaft servicing/customizing can do it with ease
what number are you using for your deck height and piston to deck</TD></TR></TABLE>
8.655
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">looks like a crazy setup. but the fact that you are grinding down the stock rod journals means they will be smaller, and your buying premade eagle rods that probably arn't designed for your smaller journals. where are you going to get the custom thicker bearing</TD></TR></TABLE>
The journals are going to be ground from the stock H series diameter down to the stock B series diameter... The journal widths between the 2 are identical, the only difference between the 2 is the actual journal bore or BE width on the rod (H Series = 2.008, B series = 1.890)... With the H crank rod journal being ground to the pin size of the B crank rod journals the B series rods will bolt right up using B series bearings.
i guess what im getting at is journalsize is going to play a big role in what you engine can withstand[/QUOTE]
got it covered
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would <U>LOVE</U> to see how they machine this and keep it perfectly round
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just about every machine shop that does crankshaft servicing/customizing can do it with ease
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Re: (98TypeSH)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98TypeSH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sounds all fine and dandy, but exactly which parts do you have in your hand? Just thinking out loud or got your checkbook out?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Bottom end wise, I have everything except the pistons (still not 100% on what I wanna do combustion chamber wise) and the actual crank work... I can get the sleeves whenever I need them...
The top end, I have cams on order but may cancel and go with a set of custom cams from the Crower R&D department :::shrugs:::, Im still doing research on head work... Trying to do something different with the port shapes and combustion chambers so the head is sitting in storage untill I get that all finalized... Ive been talking with Ed Turnier from Eds racing heads recently about a few new ideas...
The header is on Jeffs H23 VTEC hatch for now, the IM still has a lot of work left in it before it goes on Jeffs car, then on to mine...
I guess that somes it up... I change my mind all the damn time though so with me... Nothing is final
Bottom end wise, I have everything except the pistons (still not 100% on what I wanna do combustion chamber wise) and the actual crank work... I can get the sleeves whenever I need them...
The top end, I have cams on order but may cancel and go with a set of custom cams from the Crower R&D department :::shrugs:::, Im still doing research on head work... Trying to do something different with the port shapes and combustion chambers so the head is sitting in storage untill I get that all finalized... Ive been talking with Ed Turnier from Eds racing heads recently about a few new ideas...
The header is on Jeffs H23 VTEC hatch for now, the IM still has a lot of work left in it before it goes on Jeffs car, then on to mine...
I guess that somes it up... I change my mind all the damn time though so with me... Nothing is final
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From: northern DRUNKit, ma
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (Rick Solis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rick Solis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
8.655
The journals are going to be ground from the stock H series diameter down to the stock B series diameter... The journal widths between the 2 are identical, the only difference between the 2 is the actual journal bore or BE width on the rod (H Series = 2.008, B series = 1.890)... With the H crank rod journal being ground to the pin size of the B crank rod journals the B series rods will bolt right up using B series bearings.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
very impressive, .. but don't forget that just because your journal is the same as the b series doesn't mean that you wil have the reliability of the b series.
the forces on the rods and their journals is going to be far different from that of a b series. i don't know the math but with that increase in stroke is going to change the angle that the forces are exerted. i don't remeber exactly,, but something like the larger the crank angle the worse. some one correct me or back me up
i have no doubts that you have done your homework. very impressive, so i take it those rods BE bore are that of the b series spec?
i wis someone would come in here and break it down using math.. maybe if i can find the old thread ill do a comparison.
8.655
The journals are going to be ground from the stock H series diameter down to the stock B series diameter... The journal widths between the 2 are identical, the only difference between the 2 is the actual journal bore or BE width on the rod (H Series = 2.008, B series = 1.890)... With the H crank rod journal being ground to the pin size of the B crank rod journals the B series rods will bolt right up using B series bearings.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
very impressive, .. but don't forget that just because your journal is the same as the b series doesn't mean that you wil have the reliability of the b series.
the forces on the rods and their journals is going to be far different from that of a b series. i don't know the math but with that increase in stroke is going to change the angle that the forces are exerted. i don't remeber exactly,, but something like the larger the crank angle the worse. some one correct me or back me up
i have no doubts that you have done your homework. very impressive, so i take it those rods BE bore are that of the b series spec?
i wis someone would come in here and break it down using math.. maybe if i can find the old thread ill do a comparison.
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Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (prelittlelude)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
very impressive, .. but don't forget that just because your journal is the same as the b series doesn't mean that you wil have the reliability of the b series</TD></TR></TABLE>
The crank will be re heat treated and crio frozen so strength shouldnt be an issue at all... It should be close to if not stronger than it is from the factory...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the forces on the rods and their journals is going to be far different from that of a b series. i don't know the math but with that increase in stroke is going to change the angle that the forces are exerted. i don't remeber exactly,, but something like the larger the crank angle the worse. some one correct me or back me up
i have no doubts that you have done your homework. very impressive, so i take it those rods BE bore are that of the b series spec?</TD></TR></TABLE>
All precautions have been thought of and adressed... The angle isnt going to be much different than that of the stock H22... And yes, the rods are a B series shelf rod from eagle...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wis someone would come in here and break it down using math.. maybe if i can find the old thread ill do a comparison.</TD></TR></TABLE>
PM me your AIM/AOL SN and Ill IM you... Ill be happy to answer any of your Q's and assist you with any info you may need...
very impressive, .. but don't forget that just because your journal is the same as the b series doesn't mean that you wil have the reliability of the b series</TD></TR></TABLE>
The crank will be re heat treated and crio frozen so strength shouldnt be an issue at all... It should be close to if not stronger than it is from the factory...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the forces on the rods and their journals is going to be far different from that of a b series. i don't know the math but with that increase in stroke is going to change the angle that the forces are exerted. i don't remeber exactly,, but something like the larger the crank angle the worse. some one correct me or back me up
i have no doubts that you have done your homework. very impressive, so i take it those rods BE bore are that of the b series spec?</TD></TR></TABLE>
All precautions have been thought of and adressed... The angle isnt going to be much different than that of the stock H22... And yes, the rods are a B series shelf rod from eagle...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wis someone would come in here and break it down using math.. maybe if i can find the old thread ill do a comparison.</TD></TR></TABLE>
PM me your AIM/AOL SN and Ill IM you... Ill be happy to answer any of your Q's and assist you with any info you may need...
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Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (Rick Solis)
Ive been kind of getting mixed reviews about the .708 pin, some say its too small and will snap, others say it'll be fine... Im not too sure about it now...
Im going to have to check and see if theres enough material on the pin end of the rod but something Ive been considering was opening the pin end up to either...
The D series size of .748
Most likely the easiest and most straight forward aproach.
The B series .826
This might be the best option when considering all the factors (material left on the rod, strength and reliability)
The stock H series .866
This is prefered but Im not sure if there is going to be enough material on the pin end of the rod to go to this size. Im going to have to look into this a bit more but for now it looks as if the B series pin may be the best option.
Im still going to do more research on the .708 pins before I make a decision regarding... I like the .708 pin for the fact that it helps keep the pin out of the oil ring groove more than any of the other pins and its going to be a bit lighter than the others as well... But, if Im sacrificing strength to go that route it might not be the best idea...
Im just keeping my options open and looking for the best possible combination
Im going to have to check and see if theres enough material on the pin end of the rod but something Ive been considering was opening the pin end up to either...
The D series size of .748
Most likely the easiest and most straight forward aproach.
The B series .826
This might be the best option when considering all the factors (material left on the rod, strength and reliability)
The stock H series .866
This is prefered but Im not sure if there is going to be enough material on the pin end of the rod to go to this size. Im going to have to look into this a bit more but for now it looks as if the B series pin may be the best option.
Im still going to do more research on the .708 pins before I make a decision regarding... I like the .708 pin for the fact that it helps keep the pin out of the oil ring groove more than any of the other pins and its going to be a bit lighter than the others as well... But, if Im sacrificing strength to go that route it might not be the best idea...
Im just keeping my options open and looking for the best possible combination
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From: San Diego, Ca
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (fastludeh22)
stock lengths are:
B16 = 134mm
B18A/B = 137mm
B18C = 137.9mm
Eagle has a 140.5mm B series rod, they also have a 5.862 and a 5.9XX rod that was made for the deck plate motors but can be used with a offset ground/destroked crank if need be.
B16 = 134mm
B18A/B = 137mm
B18C = 137.9mm
Eagle has a 140.5mm B series rod, they also have a 5.862 and a 5.9XX rod that was made for the deck plate motors but can be used with a offset ground/destroked crank if need be.
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From: northern DRUNKit, ma
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (fastludeh22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fastludeh22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is the lenth of the b-series rods vs the h-series rods?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
the rod he is using is a special eagle rods as i understand, and is not a factory length. though i could be wrong. i belive hes going custom crank with a extended b series rod, and then a custom piston,
</TD></TR></TABLE>
the rod he is using is a special eagle rods as i understand, and is not a factory length. though i could be wrong. i belive hes going custom crank with a extended b series rod, and then a custom piston,
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From: On the Prowl, Mo
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (prelittlelude)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
very impressive, .. but don't forget that just because your journal is the same as the b series doesn't mean that you wil have the reliability of the b series.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
true, the b-series also provides better oiling to the journals as well.
very impressive, .. but don't forget that just because your journal is the same as the b series doesn't mean that you wil have the reliability of the b series.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
true, the b-series also provides better oiling to the journals as well.
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From: land of the sheep, home of the hypocrite
Re: Set up plans as of 5/28, check it out and critique away... (SKDRCR)
The F20B had B16 sized rod journals. They were going the other way with the stroke on it though. If you don't already have the parts, might want to go with a 98+ H22 crank and block to get the 55mm main bearings. Also, depending on how much you are planning to spend on this crank, might want to look into a custom Crower (or equivalent) piece. Good luck!