I had to re read the article about three times, but the way I read it. SCCA has finally figured out and admitted that there is a serious flaw in the classing in Improved Touring Classes. There is currently a proposal to

"add additional wording to the IT Category Specs that woudl allow weight to be added to some models to bring their performance in line with others in the class."

So it looks as though they will look into adding weight finally to the damn fast ITS BMW's to make my GSR more competitive!

Any opinions? To me this sounds awesome!

 

This is not new. Some cars have already been moved.

Discussed extensively at improvedtouring.com

 

Welcome to last month.

Matt<--owner of 2 soon-to-be reclassed ITA SE-Rs....

 

I'll believe it when I read it......I'm sure there will be some sort of change or changes. Make sure you always have alternative plans for your car....you can't count on the SCCA to do what is right all the time.....

 

Whether this is "right" or not remains to be seen but remember that SportsCar is SCCA's mouthpiece: I don't believe that the club would allow an article like that if approval of PCAs weren't a done deal.

K

 

I was surprised to see the re-class as well, good job SCCA. Better late than never. Now BMW's will have serious competition.

 

I think it is a good idea. I heard about it a month or more ago but read the SportsCar article last night. I don't know that it is an admission to a serious flaw, I think it is making a big change to help some issues that weren't seen in the creation and early years of the category. I have raced IT since 1988 and have been interested in it since about when it started in the early '80s and this addresses some issues that have been around many years but has had more impact in the last five to ten years

Remember that this is not a program of making weight adjustments to all cars and thereby trying to provide a level playing field for all cars, they are just targetting the "underdog" and "overdog" situation in the first few years that a car is in a class, the cars in the middle of a class will not be getting weight adjustments, just those at the very top and bottom of each class.

I'm glad to see that the Neons, SERs, and a few FWD previously ITS cars will be given a place to play with hope of being competitive and the edge taken off the dominating ITS cars. The 83-84 Rabbit GTI started out at a decent ITA car, fell uncompetitve then dropped into ITB and have fallen uncompetitive there too. Maybe they can cut some weight and pull it back up in ITB or add weight and make it ITC. Most guys don't recall it but the '78-84 RX7 12A started as a good ITS car (a freind of mine had many Cen-Div wins) then dropped into ITA to fall somewhat uncompetitive there also over time to the point that they started making up their own classes (Spec RX7 and IT7). Maybe some weight tweeks will help bring these generally plentiful and inexpensive Rabbits, RX7s and maybe others back to the tracks. No guarantees of wins but better hopes than back of the pack.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So it looks as though they will look into adding weight finally to the damn fast ITS BMW's to make my GSR more competitive!

Any opinions? To me this sounds awesome!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

It would be nice to slow the BMW's down but even if SCCA adds 100 pounds to the BMW's and allows the GSR's to drop 100-150 pounds the BMW's will still be quicker.

I drove someone else's GSR ITS car at VIR a few weeks ago and was stunned at how quick the BMW's were. The GSR is was racing wasn't built to full ITS specs, but there was another GSR that has a "built" motor, a competant driver, and so on. That car was still 7 seconds behind the fastest BMW's.

At Summit Point it's about 4 seconds.

The BMW's are putting around 200-215 to the ground. Even a maxed out GSR built to ITS specs would be hard pressed to make 170 to the ground.

My car is currently an H4 car but can't run in ITS or ITA. It's a GSR shell with LS components so SCCA won't let it race anywhere. I am putting it back to GSR specs next year but have no hope of being competitive in ITS even if the hadicap the BMW's. It would take a restrictor plus huge amount of weight to make a GSR equal to a BMW.

I don't think there are enough GSR's for SCCA to give a hoot about them. It would be nice if they could run in the proposed IT2 class but I guess they would just clean up like the BMW's do in ITS.

Oh well....some change is better than no change!

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
#40 Guident Technologies/HRPWorld.com/Flatoutracing.net Integra LS H4

 

I need to get my Celica's weight down also. its 2680 for ITA right now. my car is 2735 right now. This is killing me

 

Just remember nothing is a done deal until the SCCA board of directors votes on this and other proposals at their aug meeting.

Bob

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The BMW's are putting around 200-215 to the ground. Even a maxed out GSR built to ITS specs would be hard pressed to make 170 to the ground.</TD></TR></TABLE>

remember its not all the BMWs, just the e36 325s. I'd be hard pressed to make 170 at the CRANK with my car. The e36 doesnt just have a HP advantantage either. The rear suspension is very sophisticated and it has better brakes and aero than most of the current ITS cars.

The problem is bigger than just the current overdogs. There's been a lot of development in street cars in the last 10+ years and almost all of the cars that are getting to be too old for T2 are too fast for ITS, for example, the 95 e36 M3 will kill the e36 325 if developed to anything like current IT specs.

IMO there needs to be a general shuffling down of older cars to make room for the newer, faster cars at the top of IT.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The BMW's are putting around 200-215 to the ground. Even a maxed out GSR built to ITS specs would be hard pressed to make 170 to the ground.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, let me give you some hope.
After OPM did my GSR motor in 2002 it put 172 to the wheels on a dynojet. That exact same dynojet has tested the BMW that just ran the 2:12 at VIR. I'm not at liberty to say what it had, but what you estimated above is pretty close.

Now, keep in mind that my old car was at 172whp with stock management, stock timing, and 93 octane pump gas. Its not at all outrageous to think that one could legally get 185 dynojet WHP out of a fully prepped and properly tuned ITS GSR motor.

Now add about 125lbs to the BMW while dropping about 100lbs from the GSR and you have a fair fight at most tracks.
So fear not Jon, some things need to happen on the SCCA side and you'd have to invest some money for a TOTAL IT powerplant build, but the GSR can run with the BMW if the pieces all fall into place.

 

I am with Scott, other then the brakes, I think the GSR will be fine if the weights of the cars are determined with any kind of realistic formula.

I also think the IT classes need a serious re-align. Seems to me that 10 years form now the same cars will be running in ITC/ITB as are running today and were running 10 years ago. There are no cars made today that fit those classes. This leaves one ITS and ITA to put new cars.

Hopefully the weight thing will allow things to be better, but bringing back ITD and spreading the cars out a bit more in the classes will allow for today's road cars to be classed property 5-10 years from now.

Those are the cars the street crowd is hopping up today. IT looks pretty much like Improved Vintage to me .. I can only image what younger people think of it or will think of it 5-10 years from now.

 

I dunno if I agree with this Zsolt.

Cars then to have more power and better brakes today, but they also tend to be heavier. There are quite a few offerings out there right now from Kia, Hyundai, VW, and Honda that would fit well in ITB and ITC.
Look at Kirks 1996 GTI... Recent chassis, good power, but a pig of a car in terms of ITB weights. In the end, it should fit right in.

 

Joel,


Yes I am aware that it's the E36's that are setting all the lap records. Other than Marshall's E30 I haven't seen any E30's at the MARRS races.

Scott,

I was told that basically the E36's like the one that did the 2:12 are scaled down versions of SWC motors in terms of hp (not in terms of what's been modified).

185 and then add some weight to the BMW's would really give us a chance from what you are saying. But it remains to be seen if SCCA will actually do this.

I guess there is hope we might get some of these changes.

Regards,

Jon

 

The now infamous 2:12 VIR BMW was a fully built example with a very very fast driver behind the wheel. This is certainly not an *average* ITS combination. Most ITS cars are still in the 2:15 range at VIR.

But, as mentioned, this car is a ***** out, no expense spared example with what is basically a hired gun behind the wheel. Do the same thing with a 2600lb (not 2690) GSR and the results would probably be closer than you think. The ITS RX-7s are starting to get into the 2:14s on the new Hoosiers (which is of course what the BMW was on), so the gap is big, but not insurmountable.

But yes, the SCCA has to be proactive in closing that gap, which it *looks* like they are going to do.

Scott, who is predicting that if no other factors invade (weather, contact, mechanical failure) Chet Wittel will tickle the current Road Atlanta E Production track record at this year's ARRC... In an ITS BMW.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes I am aware that it's the E36's that are setting all the lap records. Other than Marshall's E30 I haven't seen any E30's at the MARRS races.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

the yellow e30 is gone. i'm pretty sure it was the last e30 in marrs ITS

marshall is building an e36 with all the secret sauce. its almost finished -- should be ready for marrs 4. he's got no excuses now

dunno how much a WC M54B25 has in common with a ITS M50B25. The WC motors can run cams AFAIK. The bimmerworld e46 WC cars were in the 2:0Xs (low Xs) at the bmw club race.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Scott, who is predicting that if no other factors invade (weather, contact, mechanical failure) Chet Wittel will tickle the current Road Atlanta E Production track record at this year's ARRC... In an ITS BMW.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe Chet will be very fast at the ARRC if the weather is right, but he has some time to make up if he is going to "tickle" the Road Atlanta E Production track record. This is held by Grayson Upchurch, Jr. at a 1:37.02X or somewhere in there. If the weather was perfect I think Grayson could do a high 1:36 in the 240Z and the car is still not fully developed.

Do think we could see Chet do a high 1:38 or low 1:39 though. Funny that these are the sort of lap times that ITS used to run on the old track configuration with the Dip.

 

So with the potential of upheaval in classing how does an outsider (me) decide what hole (car) to throw his $ into. Just when I thought I had it figured out...
Sigh...

 

To be honest the better question is; What class do you want to run, ie how fast do you want to go.... ITC, ITB, ITA, ITS ?

Then you might get advice as to the best choice. Without knowing the class the only answer would be, it depends.

Dave
#72 ITS GSR

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IP2GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To be honest the better question is; What class do you want to run, ie how fast do you want to go.... ITC, ITB, ITA, ITS ?

Then you might get advice as to the best choice. Without knowing the class the only answer would be, it depends.

Dave
#72 ITS GSR</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here in NER there seems to be the most cars in A/S. I like Hondas and I drive BMWs. I had decided on looking for an A or S car. I have mainly BMW connections and my immediate support and knowledge is BMW based. I know an S car is "on paper" more expensive to run. I was at the May 8 LRP Regional looking around and seeing the ITA Integras inspired me. The DA Integra is one of my all time favorite cars. That is where I was. Patiently reading Sports Car and it.com looking for the right starting point. I'm not in a hurry but I'm not diving into something just to do it.