I'm wondering what you guys out there think about the CRX SI vs. the Civic SI, in their stock classes for autocross? I don't have time and money to spend on the car to make it an STS, ITA, SM, or anything like that kinda car. And where I race, they only give out awards for best PAX.

So my question is, is the CRX SI, that much faster then the Civic SI, from GS to HS classes, after you take the pax into consideration? Also for people who will say this is apples to oranges, use the 89 CRX SI, and 89 Civic SI cars for examples.

89 crx si weight, 2138 lbs
89 hatch si weight, 2161
Hatch is like 9 inches longer wheel base i believe

I know you honda tech guys love these what if questions, and the "will my car be ??? fast on the 1/4 mile." But I figured somebody out there, would maybe have thought of the advantages and disadvantages of the cars.

thanks,

 

Both are very capable in their respective stock classes. I think the hatch might be a tad quicker (relative to its class).

 

Hypothetically speaking either car will be fine... however if you're talking about buying one, I'd look for a car that was well maintained... recent replacements of shocks, bushings (stock), engine, trans and/or clutch, maintenance records, etc.

That might make more of an impact to my decision.
... also make sure if you're going to run in stock that you get all the stock pieces parts with the car IF any modifications were done.

If you haven't already and you're planning on running with the SCCA, buy a rulebook. It will save you a bunch of headaches later.

(edit: included link to where to buy rulebook)
http://www.sccaclothing.com/cg...tions

2 cents.

 

Hmm, alright. The condition of the car isn't really my question, but you make a good point. I have not bought the vehicle yet, but am looking for both. But I just need to decide which would be a more competetive vehicle, in the stock classes, using the indexed pax system.


I was trying to find information about results and other guys in crx or hatches with H and G stock, but i'm not finding too much. Also SCCA sucks at posting their results. I had to search forever to find out where they were. I was also looking for a performance mag article, but have no luck with that so far either.

MORE POSTS PLEASE....

 

if you are strictly using the indexed system, then go with the lowest classed car with the most prep.

I assume that you will be competing locally only, and probably in some sort of street tire class where everyone is grouped together, or perhaps a novice class.
I hope we are not talking about strictly attacking a pro class of some sort.

Either way local events the "equipment" tends to be of lesser preperation. (meaning well within the limits of the rules) So for a pax contest you go for the lowest index, and prep it to the max. (meaning go for the H-Stock Hatch)

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

Where Killa-X and I autocross, they take everybody's raw time, and give out a few trophies for the best raw times.

Then they take everybody's pax time, and award the fastest guy one, then one for the whole stock grouping, and then the mod class.

Last week or so, he got FTD pax time, on azenis, running against cars with worse tires, and ones with hoosiers. Also the f-125 kart was damn quick there. He barely won with the pax time.

He's just trying to figure out if max mods and prep on a CRX SI, would give him a better indexed time, then a max mods and prep Hatch SI would, BOTH in stock class.

So shocks, tires, muffler, no air filter, front sway bar....that's about it for stock I believe. So he's trying to figure out with those mods listed above, which one would give a better pax time, with everything else staying constant, including driver.

Sure he could buy a CRX SI, mod that to stock spec, race it, then get a Hatch SI mod that to spec, and race that, BUT that would get expensive, and ....yada yada.

 

Ah..i got it now..

You would go by national results, then the 88-91 hatch is a more competitive car in class than the 88-91 RX. So therefore the choice would be the 88-91 hatch.

However..thats because no one has put the research into the 88-91 CRX to really see what it might have for stock class. Carpenter built his (now my) CRX, but thats the first gen. So his choice would really be between the 85 Si RX and the 88 hatch.

If for a region like that you build a car to its max, and drive it right, you should be stomping on everyone with PAX. Especially if you can already win on street tires. (where PAX is based on cars with DOT Rs)

So then..tell him to pick which one he likes more. (or like mentioned, best condition he can find of either)

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

The PAX differences for the 2 cars in question will only be significant to a handful of drivers across the country IMO (on race tires, at nationals). In other words, driver skill is 99.999% of the difference in this equation. Usually it's only about 95%...

A good analogy would be: "Which shoes help me run faster? Nike's or Addida's?"

Me personally, I'd take the Civic for several reasons. You can throw anything, including the kitchen sink back there. They're almost like having a small truck. 8 race tires and a passenger? No problem. A rex on the other hand. How 'bout a "nike" dufflebag... I'd also bet you could find an 89 Civic in better shape, and for a lot less $$$ than an 89 CRX, in that there are more of them, and they don't enjoy quite the "cult" status as the CRX's. And, the Civic has more "viable" options for ST, SP, and SM than the CRX does because it's not a 2 seater. Rex's go into scary classes IF you ever choose to modify them.

The biggest advantage I know of for the Rex is that short wheelbase sure is fun to throw into a corner... Come to think of it, that may trump all the other stuff.

 

The SCCA is starting a new class called STS2. It's new it's only recognized regionally at the moment, so if you're planning on going to National and ProSolos off the bat, this won't do for you. If I was going to do something I'd build a CRX to this class because it's new, and you have a better chance off the bat at doing well.

If you look at what was at the top of STS the last couple of years, it was the 88-91 Hatchbacks... they will probably continue to do well.

Back on topic... Stock Class:
In stock class I'd buy a Miata or a second gen non-turbo MR2 for ES... much better suspension out of the box then either the CRX or the Hatch... they both sit a little high for my tastes. I drove a CRX with Konis, and Hoosiers... quite a bit of body lean.

Just some thoughts.

 

CRX can fit:
4 tires, mounted on wheels
2 travel bags
tackle box size tool kit
air tank
Floor jack
torque wrench
breaker bar
4 way
milk crate with: Helmet, shop manual, 3 ring binder with set up notes, driving shoes

You can still:
See out the back window w/mirror
and have room for the passenger to sit and nothing at his feet.

I traveled like this to autocrosses from 1997-2003, then got my trailer. I did nationals 1997 like this 1100 miles each way. (sucessive years i took the car on a tow dolly..too far to risk that again)

On the STS-2 note. Great class I think, considering of going from G-Stock to there myself. But tis going to have a harder PAX.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

im looking along the same lines/idea. this is going to be the first car i buy (just got my license not even a week ago) and my parents hand me down beater (89 nissan sentra) wouldnt survive a day at the autocross. right now im looking at eather a 91 or 92 hatch. 91 cuz i think the look better but a 92 because all the parts i would buy for it. so what should i get, 91 or 92?

 

ps, if i go a b16 swap, where can i find engine parts for it, i have never seen places that sell a good amount of parts for the b16 in general

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CRX can fit:
4 tires, mounted on wheels
2 travel bags
tackle box size tool kit
air tank
Floor jack
torque wrench
breaker bar
4 way
milk crate with: Helmet, shop manual, 3 ring binder with set up notes, driving shoes
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, well, you must have one of those CRX's, as opposed to a crx. A friend had one of the latter, and if you threw a sock in the back, it was tough to fit anything else.

 

I should make a page on "loading a CRX for autocross" with step by step pictures.

On another note..i did take my Kart to a race in the back of my 86 HF once. (engine came off went in the front seat, tools on the front floorboard, and yea..the kart stuck WAY out the back, even with the front nose against the seats.

That is addiction by the way..putting a racing kart in the back of your CRX to go racing.

Jon

 

Sts2 index is tough and I think a well prepped miata in sts2 is always going to be a better car the crx just doesn't have enough power. I used to race a 91 gs integta in sts and now a crx si in sts2 with same suspension and tires and I was much more competitive overall in the index when running with the integra.

 

killa-x i dont think either (crx or hatch) will be faster. everyone thought the crx was the way to go in csp and jason tipple set up a hatch and won. so with these 2 cars being so close, it realy comes down to driver.

soloteg-the da teg is a stealth car. once they tried running them with good success in ita, people started trying them in sts as well. although i havent seen one go to big events, i have seen the da run well in sts locally. one gave me a run down to the last run in my std.

-spenc

 

Well I just got back from an autocross today, sunburned like nobody's business, And my HS CRX smoked the rest of the HS, ....but about the post.

My crx has hella room in the back when you fold the cargo thingy down. But you are right a hatch will have more room. As for the guy who wanted a 91 or 92 hatch. Generally speaking, most people who autocross the civic hatch look for the 89-91 SI, because it has the best suspension, and gearing, and power for the H class. The 92, I think is in GS, although i could be wrong on that. And if you're looking to drop a b16 in it, that would throw you somewhere totally different and you'ld be hurting. As for b16 parts.....they are all over the place. Any honda performance place sells stuff for them. the advertisement above this page now is for modacar.com and im' sure they have B16 stuff.

Anyways, about the CRX VS. Hatch thing.....I'm thinking I agree with the guy who said there's not gunna be much difference, and driving is the determining factor.

I was just wondering what you guys know about longer wheelbases, and how that affects the handling of the car? Cuz 8 inches could be a lot, or not a lot....I don't really know.

STS2 's PAX is a lot harder then STS, like 4% harder i think...

 

A short wheelbase will be more "twitchy" rotate faster..etc.

It also makes it hard to be consistant, (and in the case of road racing harder to make it consistant over the course of a race)

So it might have the potential to be "better" but it also takes a better driver to stay on top of it.

Most people will opt for the longer wheelbase all things being equal, because of that. (in autocross, I feel that the shorter wheelbase will reward you more though)

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">killa-x i dont think either (crx or hatch) will be faster. everyone thought the crx was the way to go in csp and jason tipple set up a hatch and won. so with these 2 cars being so close, it realy comes down to driver.

-spenc</TD></TR></TABLE>


Tipple didn't win CSP. Infact, I can't even recall if he trophied. And we know he can sorta drive, with that STS Jacket he's got laying around.

 

could have swron he won csp last year at nat'ls

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">could have swron he won csp last year at nat'ls</TD></TR></TABLE>

A certain RX3 crushed the CSP field last year. The only Honda's in trophys in CSP last year were CRXs.

 

yep, your right. wonder what event i am thinking...

 

Tipple won one of the Tour events last year in the civic not nationals.

 

HMMMMMM, Guess i'll have to find a Hatch SI, and a CRX SI, and see which one I drive better.....