(this is for my 1995 nissan 240sx)

what i have currently (according to NTB) is

Front Left
__________________
-1.1 camber
7.3 caster
.11 toe
15.1 SAI (what does this mean?)
14.0 Included Angle (again, dont know what this is?)

Front Right
__________________
-1.2 camber
7.1 caster
.12 toe
14.7 SAI
13.5 included angle

Rear Left
__________________
-.9 camber
.01 toe

Rear Right
__________________
-.9 camber
-.02 toe

Also, it says my thrust angle is .01, what is thrust angle?


anyway, before this my alignment was way off so this has helped a lot, but the alignment is guaranteed so i can go in whenever and get them to change it, so i might as well get it set the best i can.

what i would LIKE to have the car do is have the front stick like glue, and the back can pretty much do whatever it wants. Also, my shocks are 16 way single adjustable, so if there is a good way to adjust them in conjunction with some specific alignment settings, i would like to know as well. Currently with this alignment, the rears are about 10 clicks from full soft and the fronts are 8. At my last event i was getting a little push but that is mostly due to my poor driving technique. So if i can make the car oversteer more mechanically, that would be good.

thanks again all!



Modified by Buttcrack at 5:57 PM 4/12/2004

 

I would set the front toe to zero, or slight toe out.

 

about that, the guy who was doing my alignment said that i would want slight toe in because with a rwd car, when you accelerate the front wheels push outward, and with slight toe in, when you are on the gas it would go to 0 and give the best contact patch?

does that make any sense?

and why would you reccomend to set it to 0 or slightly out? (not trying to argue, just want to understand )

 

Does RWD run front toe out? Donno. +7 caster .. w0w.

SPiFF, happy to see +4 on his Honda ....

 

That makes sense as long as the bushings will give you .12 or so.

I guess its the other way around on FWD?

 

hmm, why would it differ for FWD? do the front wheels torque differently since they are the drive wheels?

 

Shouldnt matter.

A bit of toe out up front will help turn-in. Going faster says toe-out up front is a bias towards oversteer at turn-in...

 

I would set the toe at either zero, or slight toe-in....no toe out. Last thing you want is a darty RWD car...IMO

 

toe out helps turn in as others have stated, it also helps stability under braking, as the wheels straighten out. the drawback is the front of the car tries to pull itself apart, and you scrub some straightline speed.

toe in is just the opposite. it will become unsettled under braking, will be a bit more sloppy on turn in, but will help you go fast in a straight line.

personally, i will be running 1/8 toe out in the front and 0 toe in the rear (some miata guys will run 1/16 out for super duper turn in). i like the car to be stable under braking, and crisp at turn in. i think for us new guys, the 1/8 and 0 toe settings are pretty common and safe.

castor i don't know a damn thing about.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would set the toe at either zero, or slight toe-in....no toe out. Last thing you want is a darty RWD car...IMO</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you use 0 toe in the rear it won't be. but you're right. it takes some ***** to run that little bit of toe out in the rear. skittish rookies need not apply.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">toe out helps turn in as others have stated, it also helps stability under braking, as the wheels straighten out. the drawback is the front of the car tries to pull itself apart, and you scrub some straightline speed.

toe in is just the opposite. it will become unsettled under braking, will be a bit more sloppy on turn in, but will help you go fast in a straight line.

personally, i will be running 1/8 toe out in the front and 0 toe in the rear (some miata guys will run 1/16 out for super duper turn in). i like the car to be stable under braking, and crisp at turn in. i think for us new guys, the 1/8 and 0 toe settings are pretty common and safe.

castor i don't know a damn thing about.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you have it backwards....toe-out = darty under braking

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I think you have it backwards....toe-out = darty under braking</TD></TR></TABLE>

hmm....perhaps.

&lt;---runs upstairs to grab book

 

I run slight toe out front, attempted 0 toe rear (have a problem w/ the right rear trailing arm so its a bit toed in rear but as close as we could get to 0). If IIRC, its more wandering on the street now than it was prior (toe in front/rear). This is on a 944S btw.

 

hmm... thanks for the info guys. this is helping me understand i *think*, from what you guys said and what i want from my car, i will want to run slight toe out in the front.

As i said previously, i want the front end to stick like glue. My race line is pretty crappy as i am a big noobie, and i usually end up turning in late, so my front end pushes pretty hard in these situations. So if i can somehow cut down the mechanical understeer that would be good. If the toe out will give a better turn in that would be helpful.

also, the last event i went to, it was raining most of the time so i didnt have to try very hard to get the back to come out, but when i was pushing a quick tap on the foot brake would usually be enough to shift the weight to the front, in this situation it would usually grip hard enough for me to steer the back with the throttle. I think once or twice i tried a rally flick which worked *ok* but not as well as the foot break weight shift method i mentioned above. SO, with toe out, braking will force the wheels back to the positive direction, which will zero it out, giving me the best patch when breaking, making the front grip harder under breaking? am i understanding correctly?

thanks again!

 

BC, I am not telling you to run that, its just what I run on the car and I don't know what you feel in the car and can't recall that far back to remember what exactly I didn't like w/ it toed in up front (I did try to zero the rear because the car would go from nothing to around in very quick fashion on exit). I was under the impression that toe in/out up front was a braking thing and a rolling thing, not a turn in thing. On the back, at turn in I think its has some rear steering characteristics, after that, its to some degree how much working slip angle on the tire - toe in significantly, you may have very little working slip angle to the tire, toe out rear, you may be able to use up significantly more. I don't know enough to argue it at all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I think you have it backwards....toe-out = darty under braking</TD></TR></TABLE>

you're right, carroll smith convinced me of it.

if you replace all the "toe-out's," with "toe-in's," in my previous post, i think it'll be accurate. or you could just ignore it altogether.

either way, go with a bit of toe in at the front and 0 at the rear.

 

Also, you may want to add some more negative camber up front. What are your spring rates?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPiFF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does RWD run front toe out? Donno. +7 caster .. w0w.

SPiFF, happy to see +4 on his Honda ....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Reason #1 why struts work on a RWD car and not on a FWD car.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">15.1 SAI (what does this mean?)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Steering Axis Inclination, the angle the lower balljoint and the top of the strut make with the vertical axis.

Reason #2 why struts work on a RWD car and not on a FWD car.

Andy

 

spring rates are 8kgf/mm front, 6 rear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Buttcrack &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">spring rates are 8kgf/mm front, 6 rear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It would be best to use a pyro and check tire temps, but I'd be willing to bet you would benefit from some more negative camber up front.

You may want to check some Nissan Autox forums. Talk to some people with 240's and get some feedback from them.

 

sorry if i didnt mention earlier, this is for drifting, which i know a lot of you guys hate, but there are lots of smart people on here so i thought id ask anyway. dont yell at me too much

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Buttcrack &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sorry if i didnt mention earlier, this is for drifting, which i know a lot of you guys hate, but there are lots of smart people on here so i thought id ask anyway. dont yell at me too much </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I personally would try toe out in the rear and see if that lets you hold a slip better. I don't know that it would work but would try that - be careful getting to and fro though. You also may want to check w/ the guys that drift however as they would be a better resource I'd think. Best of luck.

Just remembered! You might want to try hit up James Evans here (JE Import or JEImport) - he has a Nissan (??) that he has done some drift events in. I would think he'd have a good idea on setup information.


Modified by phat-S at 10:00 PM 4/12/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Buttcrack &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also, it says my thrust angle is .01, what is thrust angle?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's the angle that the car will want to travel when you're steering wheel is straight. Positive angle means to the right, and negative means to the left.

 

Well, on our teams old 240 (not sure of year because it was a pre-production model without a VIN) we would run 0.1 toe-in in front. Although, we were running with an LT5 (he he he chevy small block) but I don't think we changed the front toe much from the settings with the 4 banger (hell, the 8 weighed almost the same as the 4)

Which way you go with the front toe largely depends on wether the front scrub radius is positive or negative. Which partially depends on the front wheel offset.