http://www.corner-carvers.com

Click on Forums.

Scott, who thinks that maybe notoriety can be todays secret word...

 

"Frank Lin's Bench Racing and Crashing"

Damn.
If that guy hasn't just moved on to golf by now he needs to.
Of course, he'd just borrow everyone elses clubs, but thats a whole 'nother thing altogether.

 

Check out the thread in there about "I let Ghettoracer drive my car". Pretty funny, though considering the public mood on that board, I'm surprised they haven't ripped that guy a new one yet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Of course, he'd just borrow everyone elses clubs, but thats a whole 'nother thing altogether.</TD></TR></TABLE>

and then one of them would fly outta his hands and land in the water hazard

joel

 

Frank Lin has been MIA for a while now.... I guess he's a missing person that nobody miss's at all

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm surprised they haven't ripped that guy a new one yet.</TD></TR></TABLE>

They did, at the height of his popularity He was a member over there, and two time recepient of the flying ***** award and assclown of the year nominee.... hence the forum name

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> "Frank Lin's Bench Racing and Crashing"
Of course, he'd just borrow everyone elses clubs, but thats a whole 'nother thing altogether.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They did, at the height of his popularity He was a member over there, and two time recepient of the flying ***** award and assclown of the year nominee.... hence the forum name </TD></TR></TABLE>
No, I meant the guy who was "instructed".

Well, unless that's an april fools joke too...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, I meant the guy who was "instructed".</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ah... i'm guessing he fell into the "didnt know better" and "my instructor knows all and will help me go really fast" trap.

I probably would have done the same thing as a total n00b. And i have a feeling some of my students would hand over their keys - some have even offered, but i take them out in my car instead.

 

Oh man... Nawzz tech and Frank Lin!

LOL!

Wow! A website that knows how to pull a prank. Imagine that....

 

Nissan-Tech y0!

 

LOL, I hope that gets archived. That's priceless.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I probably would have done the same thing as a total n00b. And i have a feeling some of my students would hand over their keys - some have even offered, but i take them out in my car instead.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would really say it depends on the instructor. I usually drive my students cars as long as they want me to. I don't take them near 10/10ths, but I try to show them where to brake, and where to shift, and sometimes how to shift!

Taking students out in my car would just not be practical because I could not be heard during any of the ride.


I sure don't insist that I drive anyones car. That is not right. Anyone that did to me would get a big with the middle finger!

I have had students that were very nervous about letting someone else drive there car, and those drives are a sunday ride. But then you get the people that want you to push it, and then you can have a bit more fun, with-in reason!


I guess I am just trying to say that I think it's a good thing to have someone that "really" knows how to drive take a couple laps in your car and tell you what they think. It also give me a chance to give them some idea of how to set there car up to be a bit easier to drive!


At any rate, I don't agree with Franks crap on the thread, and never will!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I usually drive my students cars as long as they want me to.

I have had students that were very nervous about letting someone else drive there car

you get the people that want you to push it, and then you can have a bit more fun, with-in reason!</TD></TR></TABLE>
So you do the exact same thing that Frank Lin does, but its not ok for him to do it, only you.

Good job

 

The differences are:

I don't take them near 10/10ths, but I try to show them where to brake, and where to shift, and sometimes how to shift!

I sure don't insist that I drive anyones car. That is not right.

These are pretty significant differences to Franks approach (former approach?) and frankly quite common among instructors. Very acceptable IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't take them near 10/10ths, but I try to show them where to brake, and where to shift, and sometimes how to shift!

I sure don't insist that I drive anyones car. That is not right.

These are pretty significant differences to Franks approach (former approach?) and frankly quite common among instructors. Very acceptable IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Frank also made these exact same claims.
They also conflict with

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have had students that were very nervous about letting someone else drive there car

you get the people that want you to push it, and then you can have a bit more fun,
</TD></TR></TABLE>

If they are nervous about letting someone else drive their car, they certainly arent begging for the instructor to drive it. And if the instructor is pushing it, thats not just showing where to brake and shift.

The instructor should show them in their own car. Period. If your exhast is loud, get a damn muffler and a communicator. Any worthwhile instructor should have a communicator anyway.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have had students that were very nervous about letting someone else drive there car

you get the people that want you to push it, and then you can have a bit more fun
</TD></TR></TABLE>
If they are nervous about letting someone else drive their car, they certainly arent begging for the instructor to drive it. And if the instructor is pushing it, thats not just showing where to brake and shift.</TD></TR></TABLE>


It seems the quote used above is out of context:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have had students that were very nervous about letting someone else drive there car, and those drives are a sunday ride.</TD></TR></TABLE>

&lt;emphasis mine&gt;

 

it doesnt matter. if they are nervous about letting you drive their car, they arent exactly begging you to drive it, are they?

2+2=4

 

I've never had a student that wasn't nervous about me driving their car, but many have asked me to do so. When a student asks me to, I drive their car. I'm never the one doing the asking. This makes ALL the difference in the world.

The instructor should show them in their own car. Period.

Great. So the greatest instructor in the world is now excluded, based on your opinion of how things should work, because he drives a race car with a petty bar where the passenger seat used to be.
Uhhh... OK. Glad you're not running the show anywhere.

You do things the way you want in your nice, quiet, plushy turbomobile. But be aware that your track vehicle situation isn't everyone's. Driving a student's car shouldn't be any sort of big deal unless the instructor makes it one. Frank made it a big deal and thats why he's shunned by his peers. Many of us have driven dozens of students cars without so much as a ripple in the fabric of HPDE society.

 

And having just asked myself why the **** I'm arguing with a person with such a childish avatar I'm now officially done here.

 

There is a reason why every single group I instruct with prohibits instructors from driving student's cars.
Maybe you should take it up with Dan Unkefer, or Aryan, or other organizers? Ah why bother, they are obviously just clueless like me!

If you have a race car and a petty bar there are plenty of instructors at the track who dont, and all are more than happy to give rides to students.

This is almost funny. You all lambast Mr. Lin for driving student's cars, then do the same damn thing.

PS- Notice in my "childish" avatar, Im in the passenger seat.

 

Evan, would you take out a student's car if the group you instructed with permitted it? I ask because unless this is a very recent change with NASA, there have been many instructors to drive their students' cars over the years that I have seen. Me personally? I have always feared it, what if a wheel comes off, what if a oil line breaks, what if, what if, what if? But I don't really see anything wrong with it if someone else chances that risk, provided both the instructor and student know there's always a risk.

But unlike you and I'd assume many other folks, I don't like taking students out in my car (even when I have a car suitable). I think the last time I did it was a few years ago at Kershaw - I'd hope through no fault of mine (he was not my student) but he wanted to see how I took a particular turn. He went out the next session and balled his car up right there. Perhaps its total coincidence, perhaps its egotistical to think I was a participant in that, perhaps I just take that turn so unbelievably poorly, I don't know. From then on I started to think differently of how students perceive those instructor rides. The last time I took out a student, we went significantly off the pace (I don't know all these 10ths but lets say somewhere just above cool down lap speed) and my only desire at that point was to show him the track and where it went - nothing more.

I guess my point is, as much as one could argue for the importance of an instructor NOT driving a student's car, one could also argue the importance for NOT taking students out in the instructor's car at any notable speed. I actually think Dan would agree that its not something you should (and especially need to) be doing early out but check with him and get his opinion directly - I am only thinking of how the schedules are usually made such that student in-class runs concurrently with instructors on-track and a few discussions I have been a party on taking students out.

 

I had Mike Galati drive my car with me in it at Mid-Ohio in 1998. I then drove with him as my instructor. He then drove me around in his RTR ITR and scared the pants off me. He then jumped into another student's NSX and promptly drove it backwards into the tire wall and wrecked the rear end and exhaust on it. He walked away saying "all of a sudden, there was no grip". Needless to say the guy who had to pay to get his NSX fixed was not amused. I had a hell of a ride though. Let an instructor drive your car? Well maybe not a hard-*** pro racer who doesn't give a **** whose car he wrecks. Nice guy though. He just wasn't paying the bill. The other guy got fooled! That was the last time anyone ever drove one of my cars on the track.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Needless to say the guy who had to pay to get his NSX fixed was not amused. I had a hell of a ride though. </TD></TR></TABLE>

See, Galati should be paying for that.

No instructor EVER is driving my car if they can't (or are not willing) to pay for the damage they may do to my car. Same goes for friends.

I find it bizzare that anyone would think its ok to flog someone else's car, or to force/push someone into letting them drive another's car.

 

I lied about being done because Adam makes a great point I forgot about...

I can't even begin to count the number of students I had in my Integra (when it had a passenger seat) that I would take for a ride and then spend the entire session saying "but you're not going to be able to do what I just did."
Honestly that isn't very valuable beyond just plain showing off. And if you get a student that then goes out and tries what you just did anyway (maybe he isn't on Hoosiers, maybe his car has a stock suspension, maybe he's quite short on talent) it could cause a major, major issue.

A couple of years back Shultz took Renee for a ride around CMP in his Integra to show her some lines and braking points. She then hopped in my car and tried to flatfoot the kink, hitting the inside curbing, just like Shultz did.
She ended up going backwards at about 110mph because 1.Shultz had more skill and experience and 2.My car had much more spring than Shultz's, and the rear end got airborne when she hit the curbing.
Hey, all she was doing was exactly what her instructor just did. Same car even. Go figure???
Had Shultz tried the same thing in MY car (the students car), it wouldn't have worked. Hopefully he would have recognized, with his experience, that the car was too stiff and he never would have done it in the first place.

When I drive a students car the goal is to show them what THEIR car will do at THEIR level. When I drive a novice students car I drive it in the Novice group at a Novice pace. Sometimes I'll even take a bad line through a corner to show the student what the car does and explain why.

This is where I (and many others) differ eternally from someone like Frank. He drives students cars at the limit of his percieved abilities (which is beyond his true ability), passes without point bys, and hassles students about letting him drive their cars. You can't lump this type of behavior in the same pile as guys like me and Shultz who often drive students cars but at very conservative pace and only when they ask.

And since when did NASA stop allowing instructors to drive students cars? Must be within the past year. Unkefer himself has done it quite a few times.