Or is it most people get it just for the look? I've drove my friends stock ITR at an autox event with stock brakes (Hawk hp+) and I have to say the brake are GREAT in stock form with good balance. I'm just curious that people spending almost 2k or more to modified the stock brakes really feel any different or actuallly improve their trake time? The spoon, brembo, endless calipers looks cool as hell though...

 

I don't know much, but the after market brakes are quite a bit lighter.. Maybe they're more responsive too, I don't know about that though

 

yeah the lighter calipers do aid to the infamous "unsprung weight" that's really important to our cars. The bigger brakes to help more also. Bigger rotors less brake fade due to better heat dissipation(spelling?), multi POT calipers stronger brake hold. Better pads i think they aid to the stoppage with higher operating temperatures or something like that...sorry i dunno much.


[Modified by Type Goch, 11:59 PM 10/21/2001]

 

maybe to dedicated track racers but not to off and on enthusiasts..IMO

 

You will notice the difference more at a road course than at an autocross. Imagine, you can brake approximately 1/2 sec later at all the corners.

 

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think you'll be able to brake any later at corners with a big brake setup? And how did you come up with 1/2 sec?

 

I'm totally with you on this one, but I apply the same logic to things like cams, headers, etc. When it comes to safety items (roll bar, harness, helmets, brakes, etc.) I just hand over the damn credit card and take the hit. Better performance? Maybe not. Less fade on your last 30 min session? That's worth the money IMHO.

 

That's the thing... I've done some lapping with the R brakes and with a good set of pads like Hawk Blues and proper cooling, I've exhibited no brake fade after 30 mins. I'm pretty hard on brakes BTW. They're already oversized for the weight of that car. I don't think any of us would actually really benefit from bigger calipers and larger rotors. I think it's more for the prestige of owning nice brakes than for its performance edge, at least on the R.

It would really be nice to have a set of AP's or Brembo's anyways because they look cool and you just can't go wrong with either one of them. I'll admit to that, but I really don't think they're really much of a performance enhancer for ANY of us unless someone here does some sort of enduro racing with the R.

 

to answer the Q...... yes it helps, if your always tracking your car and driving close or at the limit, its a very good upgrade. I got my brake mainly due to the fade and confidence factor, no fade = more confident = faster laptimes. Theres of cos other advantages......... better brake feel/modulation, stopping distance.

 

Better modulation for sure and lighter. However I don't think a stock ITR needs it, just better pads.

 

what the **** are you talking about? for track use, the ITR really needs some brake ducting and a better pad. that's about it. if you've got money in your pocket to burn, then go ahead, drop 1500 on calipers. Not worth it IMO.

another well thought out response.

D

 

This is in comparison with my R and my friend's R at a road course. We have the same setup except he has the spoon caliper. After driven both, It's very obvious that, I can brake a lot later when performing high speed full braking with his car. We both were using Hawk Blue. How do I come up with 1/2sec? Of course I didn't time it, but the difference is very substantial and it was definitely more than 1/2sec. Remember, braking 1/2 sec later doesn't mean you have saved 1/2sec in your time trial.

 

More is ALWAYS better.

More power, more brake, more traction... Weight... Ummm... More lighter!!!

Seriously, I have tracked my car and burned up a set of stock pads in a day. I've had the HP+ for several months and love them (with the exception of them destroying my stock rotors- don't leave the "shim" on the backside of the pad, it's harder than the rotor)

 

I see that you're from Toronto. Which track do you go to that you can brake so much later with spoons? What kind of tires are you using? What kind of tires is HE using?

Just to let you know, with Hawk Blues and proper ducting, I can lock up my wheels on RA1's going 170kph if I wanted to almost every lap with hardly any fade. You can't brake earlier if you can already lock up brakes on both cars. You can only brake ealier if you have different tires. Brakes don't stop you, the friction between tires and the pavements does.

 

Just like any other mods. What are really necessary??

You can lock up the wheels with R tires even with GSR brakes and race pads if you *really* want to. But bigger brakes let you modulate your brakes better. In other words, the braking force comes more linear and gradual. In addition, you don't have to press as hard on the brake pedal to achieve the same braking force, thus less work for your whole brake system, thus better overall performance even at the end of a race or track day.

And if you DO need more brakes in case of a misjudgement on a brake point, bigger brakes would be there for you.

Well I'm just saying it based on my own experience. No need to agree. Just like I don't agree with some people putting certain "useful" mods on their cars.


[Modified by Wai, 2:52 PM 10/21/2001]

 

What amazes me about this topic is that people need to justify spending money on brakes...

I don't ever hear people complaining about shelling out $$$ for extra HP, but when it comes to even the slightest upgrade in braking and suspension systems they flip out.

I understand that it is easier to measure your HP upgrades with dynos and 1/4 mile runs, but to say that brake upgrade is unnecessary is a joke. Yeah, ITR brakes are great, and even greater w/ pad, etc, but one can never have too much braking power.

Hey, but it all comes down to what you value the most. For me, it's definitlely suspension & brake upgrades before any major power plant mod. IMO, stock powerplant is "good enough". To each their own.

 

We kinda did this thread a while ago, but that's what makes this board thrive...
Here's the short of it: Your brakes don't stop the car. Your tires do. If your brakes are able to lock up your tires in the conditions you need them to (if that means after 5 autocross runs or 5 hours of hot lapping, it depends on what you do with the car) then your brakes are perfectly fine. If your brakes are fading (as stock brakes will after some track time, depends on the track) the majority of you will meet your needs by upgrading your pads and changing your brake fluid to a higher peformance fluid. If the brakes are still getting too hot, ducting can be a major help. Bigger brakes do increase mass, which means they'll take longer to heat up (and cool down). Venting and slotting reduces the mass and surface area of the disc...it looks cool, but in most cases it weakens the disc and makes it prone to cracking, etc....it used to be that pads would outgas when they heated up, so holes were put in the discs to prevent the pads sliding frictionless across them on a layer of gas....but this isn't the 1950s, pads don't do that anymore. If you have any more questions, get the grassroots motorsports Brake special from a few months ago, it was a fantastic article.


[Modified by Aleph, 8:49 PM 10/21/2001]

 

We were both using RA1 and Hawk Blue. I think you misinterpreted my point. I was trying to say if you apply the same amount of force onto your brake. The Spoon caliper will provide your a firmer, more balanced braking feeling, at the same time, stop the car sooner than the stock caliper. Of course, I can achieve the same kind of performance by using the stock caliper, but I will have to push harder to get the same kind of braking distance.

 

if you upgrade to larger rotors not only will your brakes run cooler but less effort will be required to stop the car(more than likey stop sooner too) because of leverage, the calipers are now further away from the center of the disc so theres more leverage for it to work with.

 

Very well said man

Brakes and tires are also about life and death...of coz if u do 60kph on the public road everyday, then 4pot calipers maybe a bit too much for u. But if u do go road racing or u kick it real hard everywhere, brakes and tires are something that u CAN'T go wrong.

 

Wow, thats alot of money for "feel".

It comes down to alot of things and some personal decisions when spending alot of money on brake calipers. will they help? sure, more linear pedal feel, better braking performance - you will probably shave some distance over your ultimate (say 60-0, or 120-60) stopping distance as well. I've ridden in an ITR on the track with hawk blues and stock rotors and it STOPPED real well I autocross a saturn, using carbotech panther plus pads and ATE superblue fluid and it stops real well too. Instead of spending a large sum of money on a good set of pads, I would take the $1500 and spend it on suspension work, or a roll bar + harnesses, and if i already had those i'd spend the $1500 on drivers schools and tires (go through tires at schools/autoX).

A car with good ducting and proper brake fluid (maybe you'll have to bleed in between sessions, but thats no big deal with speedbleeders) and good pads wont experience fade on the track. Bigger calipers are not the difference between fade on the last session and not seeing fade. I would recommend HP+ or Panther+ pads, they're streetable and do a great job on the track. So bigger calipers are not a safety net by any means. They work, they look great, but they are pricey - not to say brake work isnt important, brakes/tires/suspension upgrades will let you have so much more fun with your car than just making it go fast in a straight line.

-Ryan 95SC2

 

I don't mine to pay 2g to upgrade my brakes if there is really an improvement of stopping distant or power. But the question is will they really shorten your stopping distance with just slapping on bigger calipers and disks? That's what I want to find out. I read in GRM once and they are testing a big brake kit for miata with no gain in stopping power nor shorter braking distance when compare to stock.

I'm kinda interested in the spoon calipers but I'm not gonna pay that much money just to have them if they won't shorten the 60-0 distant.

 

I can't imagine how it could, if you're looking at a vs. OEM comparison with everything working properly. As mentioned before, it's the job of the tires to stop the car, just like we all recognize that the flywheel doesn't make the car accelerate. Traction is traction, and it's not easy to shorten your stopping distance. Brake improvements will do a lot for your car (less fluid boiling, less pad fade, greater vent/less heat retention, etc.) but shortening your stopping distance is the job of the tires. Almost any caliper/rotor combo will be able to lock up hard tires.

 

I repeat, as ITR231 repeated for me....YOUR BRAKES DO NOT STOP THE CAR

your tires do. Those 4 contact patches are all you have to translate every input into acceleration, braking, and handling. If you want to stop shorter, get better tires. If your brakes are FADING, WARPING, ETC.. then work on your brakes. If your brakes are not fading, don't waste your money. Bigger brakes don't make yous stop faster. A louder exhaust makes the car feel faster, but it's not always the case. New sneakers don't make you run faster.

 

$1800 for suspension.
$2000 for rims and tires.
$2000 for header + catback.
$3500 for JDM front end.

Why $2000 for calipers + pads + SS lines are so expensive and unworthy??