Boy, nothing creates quite a stir than a header debate. I must say it's nice to hear from all the satified customers that I have. I would like to give my overview of the whole debate and test. To get accurate results you would need and engine dyno and a climate controlled room to have any type of real accuracy. Chassis dynos aren't the best thing to do testing like this. They just are not accurate enough to do back to back testing and have any results worth looking at. To many variables that will influence the results. Take it from me we do all of our development with the engine dyno to controll all of the data as accurately as possible. Then take it to the track and go through a set of tests again. Bad information is bad informantion. Plus the real test of a exhaust system is how does it accelerate the motor. No dyno can do that in real time conditions. Only some of the F1 and Cosworth and Toyota companies can actually check it. Those dyno's can run race simulations and see how the motor performs. But they still track test different things to make sure the dyno data say's the same thing as the track data. Sometimes the data corralates and some times they don't. SO DYNO TESTING WILL ONLY GIVE YOU NUMBERS AND THAT IS IT. THE REAL TEST OF ANY COMPONENT IS HOW FAST DOES THE MOTOR ACCELERATE. AND THAT IS WHERE THE HYTECH WILL OUT SHINE ALL OF THE OTHERS. IT WOULDN'T MAKE ONE DIFFERNECE TO ME IF MY HEADER MAKES MORE DYNO POWER THAN ANY OTHER OR NOT. THATS IS NOT WHAT WE ARE ABOUT.
HyTech's goal was to produce the best header that you can buy, period. Tuning it to the motor is paramount to making it work right. Just bolting it on and hoping that the ECU has the right fuel curve in it is unreasonable in my opinion. Plus we designed our header to work with our full cat back system. It is a tuned piece from the header to the end of the muffler. Compairing them to the rest of the headers is not fair. I have raised the bar and produced a header to maximize the Type R's performance. The other companies have not tried to do that. for reasons of their own. For Honda or Spoon or JUN or Toda to produce a header like mine will cost them to much money. The construction of our headers takes a lot of time to produce and time is money to bigger companies. So they compromise them to fit a budget. I didn't do that I just went past that to give those who wanted a better header a choice, thats it. For those who want a beter product they will buy it for those who don't won't. Does it make the most power on the dyno, probably. Does it accelerate the motor the fastest, absolutely. And that is whats the most important piece of the puzzle to us. Just keep in mind that the dyno isn't a test of the real world driving conditions. If they were we would be building a whole differnet exhaust system! And posting some very high numbers but it wouldn't run very good on the street.
Thanks John
HyTech Exhaust.

 

uhmm.. Appreciate the post and all.. but why was this even posted? Did I miss some anti-hytech post or something?

-Dave, who is confused.

 

He sounds concerned about the planned header test. If the hytech header needs to be tuned etc then maybe the test should be limited to cheaper bolt on headers (ie dc spoon toda etc...)

 

John,

I saw the power that Milton`s made..incredible!

Ryan
hondaclub.com

 

I wonder with all the header designs he has available, which one is intended for the Type R.....? Price?

 

I'm just wondering if there is a model available where I don't have to use the GS-R service cover or trim my stock ITR one?

Tried a search on that one.... -- Maybe I just suck at using that feature....

 

John is simply trying to educate some people on how his real world experiences have been...hell he's worked with IRL teams, Stephan Papadakis, Brent Rau, Skunk 2, Jeremy Lookofsky, and Mark Brauning, Esslinger Midget....etc.

John is saying Real World vs. Dyno do NOT always correlate...hell there is a local Si with a Vortech SC making 270+ whp, that can't break 14.10 with drag radials.

Austin

 

Austin: I think we all know that dyno #'s don't really mean anything.. I was just confused as yo why he decided to create the thread.. I feel bad for thinking this, but I'll say it anyways.. at first I thought Jeff hacked his account the post was such a ImportReview style post.. hehe.

 

John brings up some good points. Larry Widmer of Endyn was probably one of the first to talk about an engine's transient response. I've reiterated that many times on this board and have told people to just do some timed acceleration runs before and after a mod and who cares what the dyno says, plus it is cheaper. I even stated that "I'd really like to see is a time acceleration run from 4000-8000 in 2nd gear with each header on the same section of road" in the current header debate thread, but someone thought that to be inaccurate.

This test evolved since people always debate headers probably more than anything on this board or any board for that matter and when ever someone asks which header should I use?, someone will answer that "I've heard.." or "Mine feels.." or etc. There have been tests before and there will be tests in the future. Hopefully some good info will come out of this one.

Facts

Yes it is true that variables have to be adjusted to extract the most power from each header tested but that is beyond the scope of this test. That is why Chad wants to use a bone stock ITR so this will qualify as a "true bolt on test" and that is all it will be. Some guys only do bolt on mods and keep the stock ECU, others take it another step, still others go further and then you have the Lips of the world. If we wanted to adjust all things available it would take much longer and be more costly and as I said before that is beyond the scope of this test. That kind of test will have to be left to a company or magazine with greater funding then we have here. This is a grass roots test by any definition and I think it's great that the guys who have already purchased a header which they will most likely keep are still willing to help out with the $$ as are the other guys who are in the market for one.

Conditions, This will be a tough one to handle. It will be impossible to control the atomospheric conditions at a chasis dyno facility, that's up to Mother Nature. If we had water and oil temp gauges we could add some validity to the test. However, with the manpower that will be available, the header changes should go fairly quickly.

I still vote for a time acceleration run also.

Raging Angel, BTW my ITR header now does not require any mods to the brackets.

 

This is interesting that you as a company feels the need to make statments defending your header before anything even happens. I think everyone here knows, or should, that a chassis dyno is not as accurate as engine dyno. However to keep this realistic the chassis dyno is an effective alternative. I also think the majority of people on this board want the best bang for the buck, that includes the most power with as little tuning as possible. If your header does not fit this category, so be it. You will appeal to possibly a more "elite" group of buyers. The "TEST" is not and never was going to be the final word. It is just more info for those that are interested. So your still invite to participate if you wish.

I stated before in a prior posted I could care less about the results, as interesting as they may be. I am helping get this set up for those that want to do it. And if the Hytech is "THE BEST HEADER EVER MADE IN THE WORLD" O.K. I beleive you
Yes, I am poking fun of you here, so relax and space that **** out next time, it hurt my eyes to read.

Later Mattj.

 

[I even stated that "I'd really like to see is a time acceleration run from 4000-8000 in 2nd gear with each header on the same section of road" in the current header debate thread, but someone thought that to be inaccurate.

I demmed that inaccurate for a couple of reason: 2 gear pulls from 4000-8000rpm in my car (granted not stock) produces some wheel spin depending on the condition of the road. Second, anytime you hand a human a stopwatch there will be some degree of error. The MD dyno has the ability to time runs, even though it is not on the street it should produces repeatable results.

Mattj

 

You should hit the gas at say 2-3000 rpms then start the watch when you hit 4000.

But we may have ice up there in a month or so.

 

When I tested the AEM vs. Injen vs. Comptech intakes at Comptech we used a diagnostic computer plugged into the OBDII port to make sure that the water temperature was the same, and recorded the Air Intake Temperature before each run.
Austin

 

ahh, acceleration tests

even the guys from BM vdo in the aug editon stated that many of the ITRs will "dyno" the same hp, but will actually perform very differently out on the track.

yoshi - who's interested in this 'test'

 

Hhhmmm... Hmm... Okay, so why did you post this? If you are so confident that the HyTech header will "OUT SHINE ALL OF THE OTHERS," then you HAVE NO NEED TO COME ON HERE AND POST THIS RAMBLING EXPLANATION OF YOUR GREATNESS. The fact of the matter is, if your header performs as claimed, it should be able to overcome any small discrepancies in the chassis dyno. And you're wrong that the dyno will only give numbers...since the testing will be performed with the same parameters each time, those numbers are directly comparable. Same car, same motor, same exhaust, same dyno, same day, same operator, etc.... Face it, it might not be the most scientific test ever, but it is the most quantitative and qualitative to date. If you aren't offering your facilities and time to do the climate controlled testing you advocate, then I suggest you wait to see what happens with this test.

 

Take it easy fellas. He's just coming on to defend his product before someone comes on and says "**** Hi-tech" because we all know there are people out there who are just not fans of some particular brands - ie. ImportReview sweats Jun cams and doesnt recommend Todas. Also, he's trying to tell us that his header is for the serious buyer - not some kid who is waffling back and forth between DC JDM 4-1 and Hi-tech.

 

So where is the PayPal account already?

 

Sorry if it sounds like I am defending my position. I merely want the board members to know, that. Any testing with or with out my header is always subjective. I have been doing this for a whole lot of years and just wish to share my knowledge with you. I know what all the other headers do because I have tested them. I know their strong points and week points as well. I know some of them do very well on the dyno but don't live up to their expectations on the track or street. And some who lack good dyno numbers run really good. There is no rhyme or reason why some do better than others, they just do. We have tested a whole lot of different types of set up's. Both with the Formula cars and the Hondas and some very interesting things keep occurring. In about half of the testing we find that the best combination isn't the best for acceleration and the other half we do. It is a very confusing phenomenon that we deal with in the exhaust. I surely do not have all of the answers but I do have the experience of developing them and understanding what is going on. And the one major thing we focus on is that the transient response time is the singlulary the most important function of the motor.
Daily we learn new things to try. We are always on the cutting edge of development in the racing industry. We want to develop even better products than we already have. Lip has been running one of our R&D headers all year and has done very well with it. We could have just built them and sold them to public, but we chose to do some lengthy R&D and prove to ourselves and the competition what the new products can do. It is very time consuming and expensive to do, but the end result is a better product for the industry.
I would be more than happy to help set up a test. And give you any insite that might help you understand what is going on. I'm sure I will learn something new also.

Zeal with out education is very dangerous.

 

Damn John, thanks for the information...this type of information was the exact reason that I purchased my header from you, as opposed to using one of the Japanese brands...I was able to ask why?

 

That was my point...that he is coming on here to defend his product for no reason. No one said "**** Hi-tech," just like no one said "**** those Japanese companies".... I didn't see anyone talking **** about any of the headers...they all seemed open-minded and willing to test whatever was made available... So again, his post just seemed unecessary...I didn't see SMSP starting any threads like this, and he makes a custom ITR header too.

 

Can someone explain this further? I understand if we're just talking peak hp, but if the entire hp curve is higher, how could that be a slower engine?

 

I think John made his point clear, and I didn't get the feeling that he was defending his products, but enlightening some people to the inaccuracy/usefulness of such a proposed test.

 

Share away!

Can you be more specific? What are the strong and weak points that you have found of the popular headers that are often discussed on this board? Which ones specifically do not live up to expectations? Which ones out perform their dyno numbers?

Knowledge is power...

 

I'm very glad John came on honda-tech to share this information. I agree 100% with both what John (hytech) said and what Dave (SMS) said.

One thing I am concerned about is 'What people are going to pull from this test.' All too often people will only look at the #'s, and even worse, people will only look at the peak #'s. They will go around saying "x" header is better than "y" header by 2 whp, all the while "y" header is much stronger 'under the curve' by 20 whp.

Anyway, I just want to re-interate this test is going to be limited in it's findings, especially when it comes to the hi-end customized headers, but there is information to learn and we can all agree on that.

 

I am confused about this engine acceleration. How is it related to the torque or power at certain rpm?

Isn't it just the amount of torque at a certain rpm range (surface beneath the curve) that is responsible for acceleration? When you keep the weight and other things constant of course. More torque (+same mass) at X rpm to Y rpm= higher accerelation, right?

And what is more important: the surface beneath the TORQUE curve or the surface beneath the POWER curve?