I did a search on "head" and seperately on "neck" and only came up with a few posts from a year or two ago. If you know of recent posts, please post. However, I do think a discussion is a good idea because many of you may have purchased systems over the year(s) and have opinions. Hopefully, you never had to test the worthiness of the systems, but if you have, please tell us your experiences. I am thinking of this system ( http://www.speedwaysafetyequip....html ) because I don't have to drill my helmet, ease of egress, seems as comfortable as any other device and price.

I figured, if I can spend almost a thousand dollars on tires, I can spend equivalent money on protecting my life.

 

I don't know if you saw this, but it has some information you're looking for and an unfortunate account of "testing" one of these products:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=791965

 

I have been seeing more and more people using the Isaac system. I am definitely considering that system also.

 

Also try searching for names of specific devices. I know that there've been at least a couple threads on head/neck restraint in the last year, and once you mention one, they usually all get discussed.

 

Another ball crusher device. Eep.

Warren

 

I am a proponent of the Isaac because a.) I have already used it and although I don't like how my car looks, I liked how I came out of it and b.) its the only device that I felt took user error out of the equation. How many times have you worn your harnesses just a wee bit looser than you should ideally? Same scenario occurs with the other devices, they only work as designed if they are absolutely tight. With the Isaac, its always properly tensioned so I can't be a dork and screw myself out of being protected per its design.

This of-course is just my opinion and my preference. I'd hope you would go with some device as any quality H&N restraint will help to some degree - some just work better than others.

Just of note on total costs: IIRC, any strapping device should require strap replacements on the same interval as your harnesses. Perhaps someone that has had one sufficient time can confirm/refute this.

 

I am likely going to go with the G-Force system since I need an updated helmut also.

With regards to the mandated replacement of straps. I saw the testing due to exposure to sunlight and for the most part I think this is poor science.

A) I do not leave my race car outside year-round to where this is a factor
B) I do leave my daily driver outside year round cause the racecar is in the garage.
C) I have never heard of any recall or govt. mandated safety campaign to replace belts in daily drivers every two years.

I realize that the likelihood of a crash in a racecar is higher due to the sport but I think some poor assumptions have been made and it does not seem to follow in other areas.

I am also an advocate of aluminum seats because I do not want to invest in an expensive fiberglass/carbon fiber type just to have it declared obsolete every two years because it has been in sunlight etc. Not yet, I know but that is part of the rationale behind periodic helmut replacement. Seats next? could be? we'll see.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also try searching for names of specific devices. I know that there've been at least a couple threads on head/neck restraint in the last year, and once you mention one, they usually all get discussed.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks.

I found this link=&gt; https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=653180 and other posts.

From recommendation of Phil of philstireservice and from reading this board and from discussion with freinds, the Isaac system seems to be one I might go with. I have to do more research on other boards.

 

Try to get a hold of a HANS to try out. Perhaps a friend has one that you can use for a session. I think that a lot of the early complaints with the HANS are because people were used to not using any restraint system.

I am entering my third year of HANS use. I don't find it any harder to get in or out.

 

Here's what I've heard about these various devices...

The Isaac uses dashpots to control head motions. While an innovative idea, the way he attaches his device to the helmet is of concern to safety pros (more below), and because the shock absorbers run from your helmet DOWN to your shoulders they pull down in an impact with loads that can cause spinal compression injuries. In fact these loads are near fatal in some tests. They have a good website if you want to see more.

The strap based devices like Hutchens, Simpson D-Cel and Safety Solutions are crap, they basically hook your head to your groin use that area to arrest forward motion. They don't work - people have died and broke their necks while wearing one, and they cause injuries - they pull upward on your pelvis in an accident which causes compression injuries because your torso is restrained from moving upwards by your shoulder belts, and they cause groin injuries including lost *********.

One thing that is so important in accident research is that ONLY FACTS matter. Only accident research using realistic scenarios (actual crash tests with instrumented dummies) can tell you what goes on in the 150 milliseconds where everything happens.

The HANS needs no input from the user other than wearing it. Look at the black and white picture here and you will see how it moves and functions, completely independently of the driver, in an impact.

While this is true of strap based devices it is not true of HANS. It is the only unit that allows a full range of motion - the tethers remain slack until needed in an impact, when the device moves rearward and takes up the slack on its own. Again see the photo in the link above - this is how the HANS is designed to work.

No, but you can be a dork if you buy something that is not safe. The Isaac mounting system is not approved by Snell or any other organization. Many people are concerned about the pins of the Isaac being located so close to your head - remember an impact can come from any direction and these pins can penetrate the helmet in some scenarios. Safety experts talk about the Isaac being tuned to give a good performance in one specific crash test but not being a robust system in actual use.

FYI HANS helmet anchors are Snell approved and the foundation states that "helmets so modified meet and maintain the full faith of the Snell safety foundation." HANS is the only head and neck restraint approved and mandated by the FIA, the world governing body of motorsport. With nearly 6,000 in use the HANS is saving racers from injury every weekend. Only HANS reduces neck loads so well it allows racers with previously broken necks to return to competition. The device gets smaller and lighter all the time - in the last 90 days the regular, economy version has been lightened by nearly 25%! Many people are amazed when they actually see and wear a HANS because it's almost transparent to the wearer. The horror stories come from people who have never held one in their hands.

Autos use polyester belts, not nylon, for this very reason.

Overall, this change has come through actual crash tests of real cars using real belts on real tracks. Guess what these tests have shown - the belts are degrading fast. They need to be replaced for reasons of safety, nothing else. They degrade from stuff as common as ozone in the air, not just the ultraviolet light that is a factor in points (A) and (B) above. You can buy more expensive polyester belts from some people and they are good for five years. It's just stupid to be using old belts; this is cheap safety, and worthwhile.



Modified by nsxtasy at 12:00 PM 3/24/2004

 

good info. Where can we find the "safety experts/pros" findings and testing methodology?
thanks.

 

The Isaac system is what I have.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good info. Where can we find the "safety experts/pros" findings and testing methodology?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The best source for any safety information is the sanctioning bodies, followed by independent testers like SAE, SFI, Snell etc.

Most of this is covered by a report published by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) in their report "2002-01-3304 : Sled Test Evaluation of Racecar Head/Neck Restraints". You can get a copy from the SAE website here, for $12.00 (less 20 percent discount for SAE members).

 

http://www.scca.com/ads/safe/areyousafe.mov

Let's just say I have a HANS on order.

Hy neck hurts every time I watch it.

 

I can get the HANS device if anyone is interested.

IM me or e-mail me at sales@curpiermotorsport.com

 

I was at a BMW club instructor meeting last Saturday and the safety guy claimed that testing showed none of the other systems was within 10% of the HANS. I understand the concern about the belts being too loose since they keep it tight to you during an accident. I'm not sure if testing has been done to see what effect this might have

He also stated that in his opinion an open face helmet is the same as no helmet at all due to the number of fractures associated with hitting chin to steering wheel. The initial head throw forward only extends the spine, the hit on the chin or the rebound back is what snaps it.

It was stress several times that the HANS and the belts and seating position along with the height of the belts versus the holes in the seat and mounting location of the belts all have to be made to work together. There are very specific requirements for how the belts run across the top of the HANS for it to work properly.

 

FWIW, NASA Members can get a discount on the HANS Device. Details here: http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1655

 

What about horseshoe collars? Better than nothing? Or worthless in an automobile? I'm curious how effective those are. I've seen pics of them being used in Indy Lights and CART in the early '90s and they seem to work well in karting (maybe because karting isn't as fast?).

On the other hand, wasn't the driver who died at Buttonwillow in a NASA stock car wearing a horseshoe collar? Or maybe that was someone in an ASA car a few years back...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Outrun &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What about horseshoe collars? Better than nothing? Or worthless in an automobile? I'm curious how effective those are. I've seen pics of them being used in Indy Lights and CART in the early '90s and they seem to work well in karting (maybe because karting isn't as fast?).

On the other hand, wasn't the driver who died at Buttonwillow in a NASA stock car wearing a horseshoe collar? Or maybe that was someone in an ASA car a few years back...</TD></TR></TABLE>

From what I hear, the only benefit for the horseshoe collar is to hold your helmet up so your neck doesn't get fatigued. I think it offers no protection in any moderate to high speed accident.

Note: I ordered an Isaac device.

 

The guy there said the collars are useless for safety. They do help with reducing neck strain from driving. I will say I did not see the data for them but heard the same info from a second party. This guy did seem to be kind of black and white about a number of things, but he is involved with safety systems and has had a lot to do with crash testing racing restraints.

One interesting thing he brought up was that last year he said not to put 5-points in without at least a rollbar but the data they have now says otherwise. Modern cars are strong enough in rollover to support themselves well enough to avoid squishing you even if held in place by the restraints. The data says the crash is fast, and violent, enough to not have time to "duck" in the case of a rollover regardless of what belts are in use.

 

The horseshoe collars are useless when compared to the restraint devices discussed above. Think about what we are trying to protect against by having the restraint devices. We are trying to prevent basilar skull fractures. These happen in motorsports by the head trying to 'fly off' the shoulders. I guess it would be better to say we are trying to prevent seperation, not compression.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The best source for any safety information is the sanctioning bodies, followed by independent testers like SAE, SFI, Snell etc.

Most of this is covered by a report published by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) in their report "2002-01-3304 : Sled Test Evaluation of Racecar Head/Neck Restraints". You can get a copy from the SAE website here, for $12.00 (less 20 percent discount for SAE members).</TD></TR></TABLE>

all right, I bought the report, and I just skimmed through it a second ago. It doesn't mention anything about the ISAAC device, as I suspected since the study was done a couple of years ago, and the ISAAC is still fairly new.
So, where can I find expert comment and data telling me that the ISAAC does not work as well as the HANS, or is potentially dangerous as you have stated?

I have been looking at the ISAAC really hard because I think that is the one I am going to buy - I like the idea and the design. So, if there is negative DATA for that product (not coming from their competition) I'd like to see it first hand, before I stick my neck in their device!

thanks in advance.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, where can I find expert comment and data telling me that the ISAAC does not work as well as the HANS, or is potentially dangerous as you have stated?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, that's the basic concern I have about the Isaac - that there are NO unbiased, third party test reports available. The only test reports available are those paid for and interpreted by the maker.

In today's litigious climate you are not going to find many individuals who will stand up and say "X is bad." Instead look to those who say "Y is good, it works well and we believe in it." This is the case for HANS which has been endorsed by the FIA, NASCAR, CART, WRC, ALMS and SCCA sanctioning bodies and has been made mandatory by many race tracks and team owners worldwide.

You say you like the idea of the Isaac system, and that's fine. I like the fact that many drivers have had their lives saved by the HANS. Whether you like the design or not, it is proven to work in many different environments. As recently as 2 years ago it was thought drivers could not survive crashes of 100g's, but Ritchie Hearn survived 139g's with only a broken foot because of his HANS device. He had no headache or neck pain whatsoever. This is fact. He's still using the same HANS that saved him in this crash. If you think there is a better system, why might the sanctioning bodies above have overlooked it? They want the best possible safety for their series and they mandate the HANS device.

Obviously, use whatever you feel is best for your needs. But the HANS device has independent test results proving its effectiveness, it's been proven in the field, and it's endorsed and used by these independent organizations and sanctioning bodies. Which are all good reasons for using it instead of a product that does not have this level of testing and backing.

 

I agree with everything you say, and at the same time, just because there is already a good product out there (which the HANS is) doesn't mean that there may not be another product that would be just as good.
I believe that the sanctioning bodies adopted the HANS because it was the best product out at the time. It works and does the job needed, and it is indeed proven. There is no incentive for anybody to look any further, or re-evaluate their decision.
In MY case, I have not invested anything yet (other than time to research it) so I am open to whatever is available TODAY.
Here comes the Isaac product. Unfortunately, it has not been independently tested, head-to-head (pun intended ) with the other products.
So the dilemma is:
- a proven product that is widely endorsed and tested - but that I find cumbersome.
- a new product whose design I like, but that has not been independently proven yet. Although there is mounting anecdotal evidence that it works.

decisions, decisions....
if anybody knows of any third-party test, please let me know.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">- a proven product that is widely endorsed and tested - but that I find cumbersome.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe you've stated this already, but have you worn/tested a Hans? Or is it just the idea that sounds cumbersome? I really don't see what would be cumbersome - unless I'm mistaken, it is attached to the helmet, so you can't forget it - it doesn't require any adjustment or assembly in the car. It's made of lightweight carbon, so it can't weigh much more than a foam collar, etc.