Yes this setup does fit on a EF. Well at least my 1991 Civic Hatch. I just installed it yesterday and it is NOT a direct bolt on... well It does bolt on no problem, but the difficulty in lies in the brake lines.

1) Both brake lines on the EF are on the driver's side of the MC, but the ITR MC has one on the driver's side and one on the passenger side. So you either have to run your own brake line.. or bend/twist the existing brake line. I chose the latter, but did end up buying a piece of japanese 3/16" brake line from Advance Auto to run my own line if something ends up happening. (the japanese 3/16" brake line is how Advance specifies a metric brake line for a japanese car)

2) The stock EF brake line on the passenger side is too small to fit into the ITR MC and needs to be adapted. What I did was while at Advance, I bought a 3/16 to M12x1.0 adapter as well as a M10x1.0 to 3/16 adapter. I hope you can follow that and come to a conclusion on your own as to how I solved this problem.

Well these were the only too installation hold ups that I came across. The next fun thing was bleeding the brakes which took forever without a vaccuum bleeder. I would recommend finding someone with one before I did this again. I am currently driving the car around and tonight I need to readjust where the brake pedal engages because I find there is too much play before you feel the brakes working. I am also going to bleed the brakes one more time after driving the car around.

The plus side is.. The car stops waaaay better than it did before. I guess that is also due to the Rear Disc Conversion, Porterfield Pads in the rear and Performance Friction pads up front.

Well just thought I'd let everyone know that this setup does fit. I may write up a how to if people are REALLY interested in this.

 

pics?

 

A larger master cylinder does not increase stopping power; it increases the volume of brake fluid displaced by the piston, effectively reducing pedal travel.

Stopping power is affected by tires, pads, and rotor diameter. Cooling, mass, and fluid are also factors, but only when you are having fade problems with your current setup.

Just clearing this up for the others who may read this.

 

thanks for clearing that up..

I have to say I knew that.. but i'm sure other people are happy to know that as well.

 

Going to a larger bore cylinder will LOWER the PSI that the wheel cylinders see. It's "pounds per square inch", and you are increasing the square inch area.

The volume of fluid moved, for any amount of piston moved, is increased.

What makes this work well is if the boost of the ITR booster is higher than what was originally in the car.

Think about it this way, just swapping the master cylinder lowers the line pressure, and then the booster makes up for it (plus some).

The only reason I'm going into this is so that people don't think that they are going to add anything by just swapping the cylinder alone.

Wes

 

Did you change the proportining valve when you did the rear disc upgrade?

 

yes I did swap the prop. valve.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wes V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Going to a larger bore cylinder will LOWER the PSI that the wheel cylinders see. It's "pounds per square inch", and you are increasing the square inch area.

The volume of fluid moved, for any amount of piston moved, is increased.

What makes this work well is if the boost of the ITR booster is higher than what was originally in the car.

Think about it this way, just swapping the master cylinder lowers the line pressure, and then the booster makes up for it (plus some).

The only reason I'm going into this is so that people don't think that they are going to add anything by just swapping the cylinder alone.

Wes</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not starting anything, but wouldn't the line pressure remain the same throughout the system beyond the m/c? Doesn't the booster just increase the power going into the master cylinder, not the line pressure directly? Just the way I think is that it is going to take the same amount of force to clamp the brake pads as it did before. All things unchanged the force to press the pad against the rotor is also unchanged as is the volume of fluid being sent to each.

 

notfastenough;

You are not starting anything! no problem

What the booster does is increase the pressure that the push rod that works the master cylinder sees. Let's say that the push rod that goes into the booster has 100 pounds excerted on it from the pedal assembly. Depending on the booster size, the booster then increases that to 150 pounds (I'm just throwing out numbers here). With a 1" master cylinder, the line pressure would be 150/0.7850 = 191 psi.

If a larger booster was used, it may put 175 pounds on the push rod into the master and then the line pressure would be 175/0.7850 = 223 psi.

As a side note; when I say "larger" in regards to booster, I'm talking about the diaphragm size and not the physical (external) size. The reason this is important to know is that some boosters are dual diaphragm and are smaller in external diameter, and yet have more surface area to work off the engine vacume.

Wes Vann

 

some get bent out of shape when what they say is questioned. glad you don't

I understand what you said with the booster. I think I am looking at teh equation backwards though. What I'm saying is to achieve a pressure, say 200 psi at the contact point of the pad and rotor, it would require less pedal pressure. But regardles of m/c or booster size the pressure and volume of fluit in the brake lines will remain the same. Right? You are just essentially reducing the driver's force on the pedal to get the same clamping pressure. Or, like you said, if the pedal pressure was the same the clamping pressure would increase accordingly with the more powerful booster/mc combo. Think I got it

 

You got it!

You could look at it from one end or the other and I just tend to start at the pedal.

Wes

 

bad *** topic and advice......i was about to post these questions

 

yes very nice write
up

and wasn't a bitch to install or did u have the motor out

cuz mine was a pain to do

but aside that I love my brake upgrades help my non ABS civic stop with less mashing on the pedal

and did u change the fluid to like to DOT 5 or just stayed DOT 3???

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krazie1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and did u change the fluid to like to DOT 5 or just stayed DOT 3???</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't use DOT 5 fluid in your Civic. Use either DOT 3, DOT 4, or DOT 5.1; don't use DOT 5. Read here to find out why.

 

Damn! that is something to do in the future. Must be nice not having to mash the pedal down all the way.

 

im going to do the rear disc upgrade on my 91 hatch soon. just wonderin how much the x-over cost you? i found everything including gsr master and break booster for $430, does this sound about right?

 

I didn't have to pay anything for the x-over 'cause I had a friend that was donating his 1993 integra and said I could take anything off of it as long as I put it back in drivable condition. The MC and booster I paid $130 for shipped to the door.

Nah mine wasn't that big of a Pain in the *** to put in... just took a little thought every once in a while.. but that's what makes it fun. I have a formal write up that I did if anyone is interested. Let me know where to post it up.

 

what propotion valve did you use? da?
does it matter if abs or non abs?

 

i used the one with the 93 integra.

here is the deal with ABS. if you are going to use a Master Cylinder from a car with ABS make sure to use a Brake Booster from a car with ABS. Don't mix and match.

 

i would like to see that write up you mentioned. im going to be installing mine very soon.

 

you increase the amount of Fluid going in with a shorter stroke......so it actually takes more effort on your part to stop the car

 

Ok - the few of you that are discussing the operation of the booster and MC are making it too difficult. Maybe I need more coffee. Let's see if I got it right though -

The booster is kind of like power steering. You really don't need it, but it makes it easier for the driver. Without it, you will have to push hard (not necessarily further) on the pedal to brake. The booster really isn't a direct function of stopping the car, but it's more of a creature comfort like power steering.

The MC moves fluid to the calipers and forces the pistons in the calipers to clamp down and do the braking.

If you "upgrade" to a larger MC then you will be pushing more fluid. When you press down on the pedal you will have to press down LESS to brake.

Lets say you had a 1/2" MC and you changed out to a 1". That's twice the amount of fluid for the same stroke (stroke meaning how far the pedal needs to be pushed down to actuate the MC rod). Theoretically you will have to press down the brake pedal 1/2 the distance to the floor to brake to achieve the same braking as you did with the 1/2". This could become very dangerous because you will have less pedal room to modulate your brakes. If you put a REALLY oversized MC on a car then just a light touch of the pedal would be full wheel lock up.

 

4drEF;

Please take this well.

When you double the diameter of the mastercylinder, it doesn't double the volume passed for the same stroke. Volume is height (stroke) times the circular area. That's phi R squared. (dang I wish there were symbols that I could enter) Doubling the diameter more than doubles the volume!!

You are correct that a power booster just helps you push harder on the rod going into the mastercylinder.

You have it backwards in regards to a REALLY oversized mastercylinder causing a light touch to lock up the brakes. A larger mastercylinder will give LESS line pressure for a given amount of push on the rod going into the mastercylinder. That's the pounds per square inch formula. Worded another way; that's pounds divided by square inches (or area) You are increasing the square inch value, which gives a smaller PSI value.

The reason that volume displaced (moved through the lines when the pedal is press) is important is that it takes a certain amount of movement of the disk brake pad before it comes in contact with the rotor. Once it has come in contact, it's all a matter of pressure. If the master cylinder wasn't big enough to pass this volume, it could bottom out before the brakes start to work. Normally this isn't an issue unless you put some really big calipers on the car.

Wes

 

Ok - I got that (I think).

I understand the doubling of the bore size too. I wasn't thinking it through, but now I got it.

As far as psi, I don't know why that would make much of a difference. If you force more volume through the lines with the larger MC then you obviously push more fluid to the calipers, right?

I think we are on the same line of though after reading the last paragraph you wrote. It seems to agree with what I stated before saying that putting a large MC on a car that still has tiny calipers will lock the brakes with less brake pedal depression. You wrote the opposing setup where the brake calipers were huge and the MC is undersized.

My concern is that people on this board start to run out and get 1" MC's on their car because is cool to do like JDM, y0! I personally have ran a 1" (97+ ITR's have the same fittings as the ED's... line fittings are the same) with EX calipers up front and stock drums in the back. On a couple occasions soon after I installed this setup (still getting used to it) I had near accidents from idiot drivers in front of me. I would start to press the pedal to the point where it USED to be on the edge of locking the brakes up and I would be suprised as I bgan sliding WAY before my foot was even close to that point. The difference was about 2" of pedal (not sure... just a guess) travel compared to the stock setup. So I had much less room to modulate the brakes to NOT lock up.

It was more like an ON OFF switch for a light. A nice setup would be like a dimmer... where you can turn on the intensity to where you need it.

 

Dang, judging from your address, this may be easier if you just call. We are probably only about 3 miles apart!

To put your mind at rest, think about it this way; (assuming that there is no air in the system and negating brake line "swell") When you first put your foot on the brake and start depressing it, you are transfering fluid to the caliper. This happens until the pads set against the rotor. There is very little pressure in the system at this point.

Once the pads set, you feel the pedal get solid. At that point, regardless of how hard you push on the pedal, no more volume travels. All you are doing is adding more pressure to the system.

To play with numbers, lets say that the master cylinder has a surface area of 2 square inches, the caliper (slave cylinder) has a surface area of 8 square inches. If the rod going into the master cylinder has 40 pounds pushing on it, the brake line has 40/2 psi, or 20 psi. The brake pad has 20X8 pounds pushing on it by the caliper (or 160 pounds).

If you change to a master cylinder that has a surface area of 4 square inches, the line pressure is then 40/4, or 10 psi. Then the pad sees 10X8 pounds pushing on it. That's half the clamping pressure.

Now keep in mind that I was talking about "surface area" of the cylinders and not diameter.

What is funny is that in spite of the amount of years that I've been playing around with cars (I'm old), I've never seen it written as to how far a caliper piston (or drum brake cylinder) has to move (from rest) before it contacts the rotor. I'd really like to know!!


Wes Vann (same area code 347-3510)