Hey guys,

I've been searching here, NASA forums, and SCCA forums for 2 days and can't find an answer. Please point me in the right direction with minimum amounts of flamage:

I am buying a 99 Civic Si. I want to have the broadest number of racing events to choose from, so I would like to run the same car in SCCA as well as NASA. Showroom Stock seems to be a fairly inexpensive (once the car is purchased) class to run in, plus it focuses more on driving skills than expensive parts, so I'm aiming for that, but I also want to run Honda Challenge. The NASA HC rules state that the car can accumulate points for 3 weekends before it must be brought to HC standards. Other than performance changes/additions/upgrades/modifications that are illegal in SSC, what other standards must change, and is it possible to have a car be competitive in both organizations (allowing that I will probably have fairly easily changed equipement to bring up the competitive value for HC, i.e. suspension, wing, etc.).

Kirk Knestis, I believe I caught a post from some time ago that you ran a car in SS and with NASA. Any advice or encouragement? Anyone else?

 

I think the 3 weekend rule is stupid. Just my opinion.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Kirk Knestis, I believe I caught a post from some time ago that you ran a car in SS and with NASA. Any advice or encouragement? Anyone else?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, Kirk cheats. I don't think that guy has ever picked up a rule book in his life

.RJ, do you think it should be more, or less?

Keep in mind that the '99 will only have a couple more years in SS. You only get 7 years from Jan of the model year (2 more for regionals).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.RJ, do you think it should be more, or less?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think it shouldnt be there at all.

It allows the driver to be competitive in another organization with the same car under a different ruleset. This could also be useful in attracting new drivers to the series that already have the car (especially if the car has run out of national eligability and can be bought for dirt cheap). I dont see whats so terrible with that, especially with a showroom stock car that requires such limited prep.

The Civic Si coupe may be competitive in H3, but its a knife in a gun fight in ITS. I have a feeling the 3 year rule will be tossed out or ignored, at least for the East coast series.

 

while this does not exactly answer your question, it is quite common to see ITA CRXs cross over to H4. I believe that the only differences in the rules are:

- have to keep stock flywheel in IT (can be changed for HC)
- have to retain the winshield washer bottle in IT (can be removed for HC)

Off the top of my head, that is the only significant difference. And CRXs are QUITE competitive in both ITA and H4.

Food for thought before you buy that '99 Si. (Hint: you could buy a front-running ITA CRX for about $10k, give or take a couple thou.)

 

As long as the 3-race rule remains intact I don't see that a SS car is a good option for a crossover car.

 

Good points from all, but the question remains...what are the modifications required to bring an SS car to HC legal standards? Again, I have no problem doing swap/change work between races to run in both groups, but what is required to bring an SS car to HC eligibility?

Of course, the NASA CCR's say that a SSC car gets bumped down to H5. Is anyone even racing in H5? Obviously its due to the limited prep that drops it down 2 HC classes, but is there a way to figure out if I can add changeable mods to bring that H5 up to H4, where there seems to be a healthy amount of competition?

I'm aiming to keep my classing options as wide open as possible, I don't want to get stuck several years down the road with a car that can only run one series in one class. I figure you can build an SS car into just about anything once it ages out.

Be honest, tell me if I just need to pick one series and stick with it, or I just need to make up my mind on my own.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good points from all, but the question remains...what are the modifications required to bring an SS car to HC legal standards? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Check the rulebook... probably a few small items but wont be much "required" to race... now being competitive is another story.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">, but is there a way to figure out if I can add changeable mods to bring that H5 up to H4</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope. One or the other.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I figure you can build an SS car into just about anything once it ages out.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

If by "anything" you mean SPU

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Be honest, tell me if I just need to pick one series and stick with it, or I just need to make up my mind on my own.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The problem is you are trying to race two incompatible classes. If you are determined to have a SCCA/NASA race car you need to match the classes better. A CRX will be competitive in ITA or H4. I'm sure there are good ITC/H5 or ITS/H3 Honda models out there (don't know off the top of my head).

I think you are working with the wrong car.

 

One you can run in H1 and ITE. But your car needs to bee 5 years or older for ITE, thats the SCCA rules. And also look into a new class that just started in SCCA its called RS. Its for the cars that dont have a class to run. In ITE you must use a fule cell.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITAcelica &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One you can run in H1 and ITE. But your car needs to bee 5 years or older for ITE, thats the SCCA rules. And also look into a new class that just started in SCCA its called RS. Its for the cars that dont have a class to run. In ITE you must use a fule cell.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ITE Rules are region specific

 

I had actually planned to build an SS car and run SCCA/NASA as well (until my car got stolen).

As far as I know, there are no changes you need to make to run in HC if you have a logbooked Showroom Stock car. IMO the SSC/H5 Civic Si has the best chance of being competitive in both series (of the SS Honda cars). The biggest advantage is that you can run SCCA national events with your Si if you decide to go that route.

As for the 3 race rule, Alex told me that its not going to really be enforced on the East Coast. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would want this rule. Easily the stupidest rule in the series since SS cars are by no means Honda Challenge overdogs.

-G

 

He lives in california so The same rules appy to him. But his car isnt going to be competetive in ITE he will get lapped 5 times during the race. Just keep your car ITS legal and you can also run in H3. Which makes more sense. A SSC car will get ran over in H4 as well . But its up to you.

 

SSC = H5

 

Geez. What a confused bunch of crapola. Except or the part about me not ever reading a rulebook - that's accurate... on Travis.

G. is right on, I think - it would be a fine tool for SCCA regionals and nationals, and for HC or other NASA events. Frankly, if I could have found an Si that wasn't either tweaked to the point of being illegal/SSC-competitive/expensive or built from a wreck (or two), I would have gone the route you describe. The only real downside is that it is not going to be a good ITS tool when it loses its SS eligibility and that might - MIGHT - be addressed down the road a bit. I'm beginning to have a tiny bit of faith in the process there...

K

 

Hmm. Lets see, a 99 Si will be making @ least 50 more hp. If you don't kill the H5 field.... Gee, why only 3 race weekends to accumulate points.

Production cars get to run slicks - think that might be an advantage? Don't some Production cars get to run non Honda parts?

The rule isn't designed to handicap underprepared cars. It is designed to keep over prepared cars from gaining an advantage. No one said that a car has to be prepared to the max. legal limit to run in that class. e.g. If I have a stock ITR, that I am slowly in the process of turning into a H1 car, I can still run it in H1. I don't have to run in H2. That way, I can accumulate H1 points.

A 99 Si isn't a H4 car. It is a H3 car. You don't have to change a thing to run legally in H3. If you are asking what to change from SS to be more competitive in HC, that is different. HC will allow you to run different suspension including camber adjusters. These will make a huge difference in lap times. You could add a underdrive crankpulley. You could dump the cat. converter. It all depends how much work you want to do.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicrr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmm. Lets see, a 99 Si will be making @ least 50 more hp. If you don't kill the H5 field.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

It also weighs 800 lbs more than a CRX/Civic and 400 lbs more than a 92+ Civic DX. On stock suspension? H5 Record at Summit Point is faster than the SSC Fastest Lap.

http://www.wdcr-scca.org/resul...30106
http://www.honda-challenge.com...s.php

 

Ahhh....good info RJ. Honestly, I find the difference in lap time suprising.

Now address the part of the rule that applies to cars overprepared for or not HC legal.

The point is that not all rules will make all people happy. If this series were to have identical prep rules & ideals (as the others), it would have no reason to exist.

 

-----------------------
As for the 3 race rule, Alex told me that its not going to really be enforced on the East Coast. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would want this rule. Easily the stupidest rule in the series since SS cars are by no means Honda Challenge overdogs
------------------------


Sigh...

It meant that you can still come out and race a SSC/B car HOWEVER you wont score championship points beyond race 3.

The problem I have is that if you convert a SSC Honda Civic Si to HC rules it moves into H3, You cant take your H5 points with you. You can however run a SSC honda civic si AS-IS in H3, but I doubt it would be competitive.

Alex.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kingrat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Sigh...

It meant that you can still come out and race a SSC/B car HOWEVER you wont score championship points beyond race 3.

The problem I have is that if you convert a SSC Honda Civic Si to HC rules it moves into H3, You cant take your H5 points with you. You can however run a SSC honda civic si AS-IS in H3, but I doubt it would be competitive.

Alex.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

*not starting a rules argument*

See, I wouldn't expect to be able to take my H5 points with me. No different than running a Civic in H4 then dropping a B-series engine in it to take it to H1. I wouldn't expect to be able to take my H4 points to H1 either.

So why can an SS car not earn championship points all year? Is it because people don't want SCCA cars to come in and win? Can't be that because that's what most of the H3-H5 fields are made of, IT/Honda Challenge cars. I can't see what the problem is with SS cars. They're not that fast.

In the end its just a minor annoyance to me, because if I brought out an SS car and won every race then in my heart I would know I won. A trophy at this level is not something I am going to get bent out of shape over. Hopefully this will not dissuade SS drivers from running with us but I guess only time will tell.

 

I think the reason for the rule is to prevent some as-of-yet-unknown SS car coming in and whooping the field (for example, say the SCCA decides to give the SSC Si a bad-*** new trunk kit). Limiting the SS car to three races in the "bumped down" class sounds pretty fair to me. Writing the rules your way (allowing any SSC car to run H5 forever) means the rules-keeper has to verify that every SSC car is not an H5 killer.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the reason for the rule is to prevent some as-of-yet-unknown SS car coming in and whooping the field (for example, say the SCCA decides to give the SSC Si a bad-*** new trunk kit)</TD></TR></TABLE>

The rulebook isnt written in stone though.

Adjustments are expected, no?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The rulebook isnt written in stone though.

Adjustments are expected, no?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, but with you're proposed "no limits SSC in H5" rule, the rules-keeper has to make more frequent adjustments (or at least more frequent verifications of the current rules) to ensure some super-trunk-kitted-SSC car doesn't slip by and dominate H5. Under the current system, a SSC car can't dominate H5 by definition (since it's limited to 3 races for points).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the reason for the rule is to prevent some as-of-yet-unknown SS car coming in and whooping the field (for example, say the SCCA decides to give the SSC Si a bad-*** new trunk kit). Limiting the SS car to three races in the "bumped down" class sounds pretty fair to me. Writing the rules your way (allowing any SSC car to run H5 forever) means the rules-keeper has to verify that every SSC car is not an H5 killer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, now that makes sense to me. My gut reaction would be to say you can equalize a bad *** trunk kit with weight the same way you would for a badass IT car. Still you can only add so much ballast . for that explanation. Whether that was the reason for the rule in the first place? Mmm, moot point I guess.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My gut reaction would be to say you can equalize a bad *** trunk kit with weight the same way you would for a badass IT car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then the rules-keeper has to maintain weights for all SCCA SS legal cars twice and review them whenever the SCCA adjusts trunk kits or makes other changes to its own rules (which implies the rules-keeper has to actually keep abrest of the SCCA's rules).