Car: Type R
Springs = Spoon Progressive
Shocks = Bilstein SPs (non-adjustable)
Tires = Azenis
4 pt. Kirk Roll bar

Rear trunk bar is spoon 23mm. My instructors have stated that my car understeers. One suggestion was to remove the stock ITR front strut bar. Is this true?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RealTypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My instructors have stated that my car understeers</TD></TR></TABLE>

Trailbraking works better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RealTypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Car: Type R
Springs = Spoon Progressive
Shocks = Bilstein SPs (non-adjustable)
Tires = Azenis
4 pt. Kirk Roll bar

Rear trunk bar is spoon 23mm. My instructors have stated that my car understeers. One suggestion was to remove the stock ITR front strut bar. Is this true?</TD></TR></TABLE>


j00 talking about the front shock tower brace or the anti-sway bar?

 

I think they meant the front anti-sway bar, not the front strut tower bar. But I'm not sure I'd do either.

 

You could always put the stock suspension back on.

 

It won't make a noticible difference if any.

Do you think your car understeers?

 

i think they meant sway as well..

taking it off might do the trick, but on OEM suspension(granted, a little taller than OEM though) I didn't notice much of a difference.. my car wasn't suddenly oversteering horribly or anything.. rear did come out a bit easier, but not a lot..

just take it off one day you're going to the track.. run a couple sessions without it and see if you can feel a difference.. if you don't like it, you could always put it back on.. or run a smaller front bar - off an LS perhaps..

 

I assume you've tried playing w/tire pressures?

Do you mean the sway, or strut bar?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RealTypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Springs = Spoon Progressive</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RealTypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My instructors have stated that my car understeers. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Keep the bar, remove the springs, stunna.

 

Some of the guys I trust with opinions have said that removing a front stut bar on thier civc's has improved turn in, so it is worth a shot.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BryanSprinkel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Keep the bar, remove the springs, stunna.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


okay George Knighton

Spoon Rear 23mm brace is the shock tower brace in the trunk which probably serves no purpose now that the roll bar is in.

I think they meant the front strut bar in the engine bay rather than under the car. I don't know. I'm a retard. I've played with the tire pressures a little bit, but I'm really not a pro at it How do you know whether to add in the front, add in the rear, take away in the front, take away in the rear?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RealTypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
okay George Knighton

Spoon Rear 23mm brace is the shock tower brace in the trunk which probably serves no purpose now that the roll bar is in.

I think they meant the front strut bar in the engine bay rather than under the car. I don't know. I'm a retard. I've played with the tire pressures a little bit, but I'm really not a pro at it How do you know whether to add in the front, add in the rear, take away in the front, take away in the rear?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Never heard of shock tower braces coming in thicknesses....

 

....and suddenly we see the importance of a common vocabulary.

to be overly simplistic, swaybars connect the left and right wheel's together with a type of spring. they reduce chassis roll and can be used to tune handling balance. strutbars are a completely different peice that connects two or more points of the chassis together, such as the left and right upper strut towers. strutbars have virtually no effect on chassis balance. swaybars have a huge effect on chassis balance. note the difference in terminology.

with your limited knowledge in suspension tuning it would be a much better idea to leave the car as honda made it and just learn to drive. fiddling with the suspension will likely only make the car slower.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....and suddenly we see the importance of a common vocabulary.


with your limited knowledge in suspension tuning it would be a much better idea to leave the car as honda made it and just learn to drive. fiddling with the suspension will likely only make the car slower.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

although I appreciate your vocabulary lesson, I disagree with your statement. Just because a person has limited knowledge about suspension/correct vocabulary doesn't mean they don't know how to drive.

 

eh, I'd say change your springs. Maybe it's because everyone I know told me progressive=bad. Plus my guess is that Off-The-Shelf springs are probably setup to understeer for the n00b drivier (lower rear spring rates). It's the springs that do most of the work, not the swaybars!

what the hell do I know, I'm jsut a n00b...

 

I'm running on the Spoonies too (for a little while longer) and the car does push like a pig.

You can try to remove some camber from the rear (washer trick) and adjust rear tire pressures down to get the car to rotate better.

fwiw-I was in the sub 25psi range to get mine to rotate decently when autocrossing. Probably don't want to go that low on an HPDE, but maybe 29-30 rear, 37-38 front hot pressures are probably where you want to be.

 

start with the most simple solution and go from there. in this case it would be adjusting tire pressures. try putting a few more pounds in the rears, and keep doing this until they get to their hot temp limit. if that doesn't work, try something else. in this case the next easiest thing may be removing the front bar. run a few sessions like that, see what you think. be sure to take lap times when you do this, often times when a car is loose it will feel faster than it really is. if that doesn't work you could try a bigger rear bar, or stiffer springs in the rear.

i wouldn't remove the strut bar for anything really, a stiffer chassis should always be good if you ask me.

 

Is this a track only car? a race car? a street ride? That may help...

I would suggest, as others have, that you look into small changes with your current set-up. Confirming a small amount of toe out in the front can help tremendously with turn-in as well as finding the magic camber in the front.

Adjusting tire pressures will also help narrow down the reason for the push... I rarely see the sway bar disconnected in dry conditions rather a softer shock setting is the more preferred method in tuning at the track.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RealTypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

although I appreciate your vocabulary lesson, I disagree with your statement. Just because a person has limited knowledge about suspension/correct vocabulary doesn't mean they don't know how to drive. </TD></TR></TABLE>

FWIW, if read the way Nate intended, he made no judgment on your ability to drive.

Golden Rule regarding tire pressures:
Less difference between front and rear presssures = more understeer
More difference between front and rear pressures = more oversteer

Front pressures high or front pressures low is secondary to above rule.

 

Great info

This is a daily driver as it's the only car I have I learned a lot though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Golden Rule regarding tire pressures:
Less difference between front and rear presssures = more understeer
More difference between front and rear pressures = more oversteer

Front pressures high or front pressures low is secondary to above rule.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Eh?

That only works if you assume the fronts are set to a near optimal pressure and you only muck with the rear pressures.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Eh?

That only works if you assume the fronts are set to a near optimal pressure and you only muck with the rear pressures.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Okay, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.

 

i thought that "golden rule" sounded a little fishy.

where/who did you hear that from?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
where/who did you hear that from?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Personal experience. Care to disagree?

 

Mark.. here is what I have found, keep in mind I'm definatley no expert.

as w/springs/sways and other suspension components in FWD cars the stiffer/heavier/thicker part (or higher pressure in terms of tires) goes in the back.

For example:

Last weekend's autox ran w/40F/42R(tire psi) and then adjusted as they warmed up .. The car was very neutral, and I was pretty pleased w/the handling, allthough I'm running Eibach springs (GC coilovers) w/350F/400R so you may have to adjust accordingly.

I think the idea behind it is the rear tire has the smaller contact patch when compared to the front, anyone care to elaborate?

Are the sp00m springs the same rate front and rear? and the same height? If so you could swap the heavier rate to the rear..

There is a write-up somewhere that states what to do if you car is under/oversteering w/sways, springs, dampers (both rebound and compression), and tire pressure. It included both corner entry and exit.

.......lemme see if I can find it.

Actually I think Nate was the one who gave me the link, you got that thing Nate?

HTH