Protesting in Hona Challenge
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From: Bench, Racer
Protesting in Hona Challenge
Well, Its no secrete that I did not have a completely legal car for 2003 West coast Honda Challenge. What can you do? The series needs to grow and attract other racers. There were no protesting, no post race inspections, no teardowns. If you were to go over every H1 car, I'm sure you could find something out of spec on each car.
Now that the series has established its opening year and competition is growing, most competitors are doing their best to become rules compliant for 2004. I know I will be. Why waste my time with something illegal to have my points forfeited right?
So now to my question. Has anyone in HC protested another car or was protested against? How would you feel if you were protested? Are people still too nervous to protest? Does this nervousness promote people to still run illegal components? If you knew that someone was running an illegal car, would you protest that person?
Now that the series has established its opening year and competition is growing, most competitors are doing their best to become rules compliant for 2004. I know I will be. Why waste my time with something illegal to have my points forfeited right?
So now to my question. Has anyone in HC protested another car or was protested against? How would you feel if you were protested? Are people still too nervous to protest? Does this nervousness promote people to still run illegal components? If you knew that someone was running an illegal car, would you protest that person?
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From: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (SBE)
Shawn,
Your old car was pretty cool - it makes me sad that it has to be re-bauched.
Scott, who remembers the rules regarding protests at the CART Support Race - If you attempt to protest another competitor YOU will be ejected...
Your old car was pretty cool - it makes me sad that it has to be re-bauched.
Scott, who remembers the rules regarding protests at the CART Support Race - If you attempt to protest another competitor YOU will be ejected...
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From: SE, PA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (SBE)
I guess it would depend on what was illegal. For example, if they had a lightweight battery but still not under minimum weight, I wouldn't make a stink. But If I knew someone was running a block with aftermarket rods and pistons, I think I might protest.
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From: Bench, Racer
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (6ghatch)
I can already see where this is going to go.
If a wing, body pannel, battery, blah blah blah misc part is slightly off, most people wont protest. Leave that up to post tech inspection right?
BUT! if a motor is illegal creating more hp than expected, thats were all the squaking begins.
If a wing, body pannel, battery, blah blah blah misc part is slightly off, most people wont protest. Leave that up to post tech inspection right?
BUT! if a motor is illegal creating more hp than expected, thats were all the squaking begins.
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From: Bethlehem, PA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (SBE)
The ECHC will be inspecting.
CMP the following will be checked:
clutches
cyl. bore/ top of pistons (with bore scope)
weight
illegal chassis modifications
If cars are found to be illegal the ECHC officials will DSQ them. We will be rotating different items to inspect from event to event. The ECHC has even looked into hiring outside 'Honda' experts to help with tech...
If a competitor wishes to protest another, the ECHC will gather facts, fees and hand it over to NASA... it's their job.
Alex and I will aggressively enforce the National Honda-Challenge rule book.
CMP the following will be checked:
clutches
cyl. bore/ top of pistons (with bore scope)
weight
illegal chassis modifications
If cars are found to be illegal the ECHC officials will DSQ them. We will be rotating different items to inspect from event to event. The ECHC has even looked into hiring outside 'Honda' experts to help with tech...
If a competitor wishes to protest another, the ECHC will gather facts, fees and hand it over to NASA... it's their job.
Alex and I will aggressively enforce the National Honda-Challenge rule book.
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (SBE)
I have NO idea what the answer will be in HC this season but the group needs to collectively work out if this is going to be an entrant-policed deal (like SCCA club racing) or if tech inspectors are going to actively pursue compliance (a la NASCAR). Each series develops a culture about this stuff and it wouldn't take much effort on the part of the series managers to get a big chunk of the issue taken care of at the first event.
K
K
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From: Bethlehem, PA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Each series develops a culture about this stuff and it wouldn't take much effort on the part of the series managers to get a big chunk of the issue taken care of at the first event.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
BINGO
Kirk needs to be racin' a Honda.
Sorry to hijack your WC thread SBE.
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
BINGO
Kirk needs to be racin' a Honda.
Sorry to hijack your WC thread SBE.
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From: Northern, CA, USA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (SBE)
Shawn,
Where are you going with this? Are you asking, "how much can we get away with?".
from the 2004 NASA CCR:
17.6 Bad Faith Protests
Any competitor, entrant, or team member having knowledge or suspicion of illegal parts or modifications to another competitorÂ’s vehicle has an obligation to immediately disclose that information to that team, or to the Race Director, before the start of the race. To file a protest in violation of these rules will cause action to be taken against the protestor. This will not however, affect the acceptance, rejection, or out come of the protest.
17.7 Class Rule Compliance
Each competition vehicle must conform to a published set of rules for its class. Any
competitor found to have qualified or raced a competition vehicle found to have
unauthorized modifications may be penalized. NASA Impound Inspectors will
determine legality of modifications to competition vehicles. Any modification(s) to performance items, whether it is a performance advantage or not, will be termed “illegal,” and subject to penalties. Performance items are those items that, if modified, could potentially increase performance. For example, a missing headlight would not necessarily be considered illegal, and normally, the competitor would be required to make corrections without penalties.
What happens & how is is resolved will be a decision of that region's tech inspector, race director & group leader. The culture of the region's race group will dictate how the decision is reached. Honestly, I don't plan on hunting people down looking for rule violations. I don't have time to look at each car with a fine tooth comb. We have tech inspectors for that stuff. As stated above, it is also the competitors responsibilty to police each other. Having said that, if a competitor comes to me, I will need to investigate. I will issue penalties. If a competitor cheats, they pay the price. I won't play favorites. I don't care who the sponsor or driver is. We are adults. We need to take responsibility for our actions.
I am sure Ryan will also issue penalties when needed. He even issued himself a penalty last year, IIRC.
added in edit: I believe I speak for all of the HC group leaders when I say, that we will continue to uphold the basic values of the original HC leaders. Good, fair, competitive racing is what we want. Cheating cheapens the series and is an insult to all of the legit competitors. For this series to grow & prosper, we must uphold the core values it was based upon, & enforce the rules uniformly.
Modified by civicrr at 5:45 PM 3/1/2004
Where are you going with this? Are you asking, "how much can we get away with?".
from the 2004 NASA CCR:
17.6 Bad Faith Protests
Any competitor, entrant, or team member having knowledge or suspicion of illegal parts or modifications to another competitorÂ’s vehicle has an obligation to immediately disclose that information to that team, or to the Race Director, before the start of the race. To file a protest in violation of these rules will cause action to be taken against the protestor. This will not however, affect the acceptance, rejection, or out come of the protest.
17.7 Class Rule Compliance
Each competition vehicle must conform to a published set of rules for its class. Any
competitor found to have qualified or raced a competition vehicle found to have
unauthorized modifications may be penalized. NASA Impound Inspectors will
determine legality of modifications to competition vehicles. Any modification(s) to performance items, whether it is a performance advantage or not, will be termed “illegal,” and subject to penalties. Performance items are those items that, if modified, could potentially increase performance. For example, a missing headlight would not necessarily be considered illegal, and normally, the competitor would be required to make corrections without penalties.
What happens & how is is resolved will be a decision of that region's tech inspector, race director & group leader. The culture of the region's race group will dictate how the decision is reached. Honestly, I don't plan on hunting people down looking for rule violations. I don't have time to look at each car with a fine tooth comb. We have tech inspectors for that stuff. As stated above, it is also the competitors responsibilty to police each other. Having said that, if a competitor comes to me, I will need to investigate. I will issue penalties. If a competitor cheats, they pay the price. I won't play favorites. I don't care who the sponsor or driver is. We are adults. We need to take responsibility for our actions.
I am sure Ryan will also issue penalties when needed. He even issued himself a penalty last year, IIRC.
added in edit: I believe I speak for all of the HC group leaders when I say, that we will continue to uphold the basic values of the original HC leaders. Good, fair, competitive racing is what we want. Cheating cheapens the series and is an insult to all of the legit competitors. For this series to grow & prosper, we must uphold the core values it was based upon, & enforce the rules uniformly.
Modified by civicrr at 5:45 PM 3/1/2004
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From: Gilbert, AZ, USA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (El Pollo Diablo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Clutches?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Me too, I would like to know how you can check the clutch from outside the car? I'm not looking to cheat, I am just curious.
Thanks.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Me too, I would like to know how you can check the clutch from outside the car? I'm not looking to cheat, I am just curious.
Thanks.
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (97ssb-gsr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97ssb-gsr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Me too, I would like to know how you can check the clutch from outside the car? I'm not looking to cheat, I am just curious.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Remove the metal plate on the bottom of the bellhousing.
I am guessing the intent is to discourage people from using the 4" carbon twin disc bling setups...
Remove the metal plate on the bottom of the bellhousing.
I am guessing the intent is to discourage people from using the 4" carbon twin disc bling setups...
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From: Browns Summit, NC, USA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Remove the metal plate on the bottom of the bellhousing.
I am guessing the intent is to discourage people from using the 4" carbon twin disc bling setups... </TD></TR></TABLE>
you can not check a clutch by removing "the metal plate" without a mirror...and there is a much easier way to check it.....
i tell ya what....if my car is running....
Remove the metal plate on the bottom of the bellhousing.
I am guessing the intent is to discourage people from using the 4" carbon twin disc bling setups... </TD></TR></TABLE>
you can not check a clutch by removing "the metal plate" without a mirror...and there is a much easier way to check it.....
i tell ya what....if my car is running....
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From: Jasma
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (chad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you can not check a clutch by removing "the metal plate" without a mirror...and there is a much easier way to check it.....
i tell ya what....if my car is running....</TD></TR></TABLE>
The b00tie on the slave?
i tell ya what....if my car is running....</TD></TR></TABLE>
The b00tie on the slave?
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (chad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you can not check a clutch by removing "the metal plate" without a mirror...and there is a much easier way to check it.....
i tell ya what....if my car is running....</TD></TR></TABLE>
It would be obvious either way since a smaller-diameter clutch would require a special flywheel to bolt onto. It should be obvious by looking at either the backside of the flywheel, or in the release fork opening.
Saying that you're going to be doing piston inspection implies that a borescope is present so a clutch check becomes a 30 second affair.
you can not check a clutch by removing "the metal plate" without a mirror...and there is a much easier way to check it.....
i tell ya what....if my car is running....</TD></TR></TABLE>
It would be obvious either way since a smaller-diameter clutch would require a special flywheel to bolt onto. It should be obvious by looking at either the backside of the flywheel, or in the release fork opening.
Saying that you're going to be doing piston inspection implies that a borescope is present so a clutch check becomes a 30 second affair.
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From: NOVA, VA, Always on Travel
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (JeffS)
I'm all in favor of full disclosure of my car. If anyone wants to know what I'm running just ask. You can look.. do whatever take it around the padock if I know you. If you come by my car I'm not going to throw a tarp over it etc..
The truth shall set you free.
The truth shall set you free.
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From: One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (JohnW)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JohnW »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The ECHC will be inspecting.
CMP the following will be checked:
<snip>
</TD></TR></TABLE>
May I suggest NOT declaring what will be checked? Giving advanced notice is asking competitors to cheat elsewhere.
When MARRS SRX-7 got bad and the class admins decided to clean up the paddock, they instituted inspections of random parts on all cars entered (usually major performance things like carb, trans internals, etc). They also had mandatory mini-inspections of top qualifying and top placing cars.
CMP the following will be checked:
<snip>
</TD></TR></TABLE>
May I suggest NOT declaring what will be checked? Giving advanced notice is asking competitors to cheat elsewhere.
When MARRS SRX-7 got bad and the class admins decided to clean up the paddock, they instituted inspections of random parts on all cars entered (usually major performance things like carb, trans internals, etc). They also had mandatory mini-inspections of top qualifying and top placing cars.
To cheating.
To the person that thinks faster guy is cheating.
To the Runnerup's
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From: Orange, CALIFORNIA, USA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (SBE)
I have made our Teams position on protesting or being protested very clear on other threads... There shouldn't be any need for anyone to protest in 2004. We have a clear set of national rules now. However, we will be insisting that Ryan check and seal our engines before the season starts. I would suggest that everyone else who intends to be competitive does the same. I'm not suggesting that having an engine sealed brings immunity from protest... But it should deter a lot of time wasting.
I just want to make it clear that we intend to build our cars to the letter of the rules. We will not cheat! But we will use every competitive edge within those rules we can find.
We have no fear of any protest from anyone... However, be warned. We will have preprinted counter protest forms ready at every event. So If you want to check any of our cars... Yours is going to be checked as well.
I still firmly believe there should be a Minimum Protest fee of $500.00 ( Per protested item) which should go to the protested car owner if a protest is proved to be unfounded! Or returned to the protester if his claim is correct.
Kiwi
Special Projects Motor Sports
Modified by KIWI at 11:43 PM 3/1/2004
I just want to make it clear that we intend to build our cars to the letter of the rules. We will not cheat! But we will use every competitive edge within those rules we can find.
We have no fear of any protest from anyone... However, be warned. We will have preprinted counter protest forms ready at every event. So If you want to check any of our cars... Yours is going to be checked as well.
I still firmly believe there should be a Minimum Protest fee of $500.00 ( Per protested item) which should go to the protested car owner if a protest is proved to be unfounded! Or returned to the protester if his claim is correct.
Kiwi
Special Projects Motor Sports
Modified by KIWI at 11:43 PM 3/1/2004
Joined: Apr 2003
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Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (KIWI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We have no fear of any protest from anyone... However, be warned. We will have preprinted counter protest forms ready at every event. So If you want to check any of our cars... Yours is going to be checked as well.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm just a noob, and have no plans for any competition driving anytime in the near future, but wouldn't filing a protest against someone who protests you "just because" run afoul of this rule?
17.6 Bad Faith Protests
Any competitor, entrant, or team member having knowledge or suspicion of illegal parts or modifications to another competitorÂ’s vehicle has an obligation to immediately disclose that information to that team, or to the Race Director, before the start of the race. To file a protest in violation of these rules will cause action to be taken against the protestor. This will not however, affect the acceptance, rejection, or out come of the protest.
Or are counter-protest forms something different?
Again, I'm just a noob, but your post comes off as trying to intimidate people into not protesting your car.
BTW, I do agree that unfounded protests waste everyone's time. With bore scopes, most protests would be non-invasive, so I don't see why you seem so against it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm just a noob, and have no plans for any competition driving anytime in the near future, but wouldn't filing a protest against someone who protests you "just because" run afoul of this rule?
17.6 Bad Faith Protests
Any competitor, entrant, or team member having knowledge or suspicion of illegal parts or modifications to another competitorÂ’s vehicle has an obligation to immediately disclose that information to that team, or to the Race Director, before the start of the race. To file a protest in violation of these rules will cause action to be taken against the protestor. This will not however, affect the acceptance, rejection, or out come of the protest.
Or are counter-protest forms something different?
Again, I'm just a noob, but your post comes off as trying to intimidate people into not protesting your car.
BTW, I do agree that unfounded protests waste everyone's time. With bore scopes, most protests would be non-invasive, so I don't see why you seem so against it.
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From: One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (alphajesse)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alphajesse »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or are counter-protest forms something different?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Same thing. He's just saying if somebody protests him, he'll protest back. That's his right (he can protest whoever he wants).
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Again, I'm just a noob, but your post comes off as trying to intimidate people into not protesting your car.
BTW, I do agree that unfounded protests waste everyone's time. With bore scopes, most protests would be non-invasive, so I don't see why you seem so against it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
He shouldn't be. There is very little reason in a regional series to do full teardowns mid-season. Compression ratio, displacement, clutch/flywheel, trans gear ratios, FD, etc can all be checked without a teardown.
As for the $500 comment, that's just nonsense. The protest fee should be enough to cover the labor involved in determining legality plus whatever 'paperwork' fee that sanctioning body wants to add. So, for all the things I listed above would be about an hours labor, so make the fee $100. If somebody wants a full engine tear down, then of course, the protest fee would have to bee $500 or more.
Maybe west coast drivers are prone to unsubstantiated protests, but I've rarely seen it happen in regional SCCA racing here in the mid-atlantic.
I'm not sure about NASA, but in SCCA club racing, you generally have to specify which part on the car you are protesting. You can't just say, "he's illegal, I protest". You have to say "He's running an illegal cam".
Same thing. He's just saying if somebody protests him, he'll protest back. That's his right (he can protest whoever he wants).
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Again, I'm just a noob, but your post comes off as trying to intimidate people into not protesting your car.
BTW, I do agree that unfounded protests waste everyone's time. With bore scopes, most protests would be non-invasive, so I don't see why you seem so against it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
He shouldn't be. There is very little reason in a regional series to do full teardowns mid-season. Compression ratio, displacement, clutch/flywheel, trans gear ratios, FD, etc can all be checked without a teardown.
As for the $500 comment, that's just nonsense. The protest fee should be enough to cover the labor involved in determining legality plus whatever 'paperwork' fee that sanctioning body wants to add. So, for all the things I listed above would be about an hours labor, so make the fee $100. If somebody wants a full engine tear down, then of course, the protest fee would have to bee $500 or more.
Maybe west coast drivers are prone to unsubstantiated protests, but I've rarely seen it happen in regional SCCA racing here in the mid-atlantic.
I'm not sure about NASA, but in SCCA club racing, you generally have to specify which part on the car you are protesting. You can't just say, "he's illegal, I protest". You have to say "He's running an illegal cam".
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From: Orange, CALIFORNIA, USA
Re: Protesting in Hona Challenge (alphajesse)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alphajesse »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Again, I'm just a noob, but your post comes off as trying to intimidate people into not protesting your car. BTW, I do agree that unfounded protests waste everyone's time. With bore scopes, most protests would be non-invasive, so I don't see why you seem so against it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please don't get me wrong... We have no intention of trying to intimidate anyone, or getting into any protest battles. We have no need to... The specs on our engines, transmissions, clutches etc. Will become public knowledge in due course. In fact our team will be the subject of so many articles and media attention this season, It will be impossible for us to get away with anything that is outside the rules! We have nothing to hide, if any competitor wants to know anything about our cars, they only have to ask... Who knows, they may learn something new!
My comments regarding counter protests were made because we were informed some time ago that our cars were going to be arbitrarily protested at the first event by a particular competitor... At the time I believed that this was just a case of sour grapes, or victimization? However, I was surprised to hear that in NASA, protests can be lodged virtually indiscriminately, with no fee or compensation to a competitor who is the subject of an unfounded protest. I was merely saying, don't try any to pull any unfounded crap! we are prepared to give as good as we get. We have no problem with random tech inspections or any reasonable request from any official as to the specs of any particular items on our cars. We just don't want to see competitors being allowed to go on indiscriminate fishing trips! If you want to know... Just ask. You might be surprised just how much valuable and helpful information you may receive.
Kiwi
Special Projects Motor Sports
Again, I'm just a noob, but your post comes off as trying to intimidate people into not protesting your car. BTW, I do agree that unfounded protests waste everyone's time. With bore scopes, most protests would be non-invasive, so I don't see why you seem so against it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please don't get me wrong... We have no intention of trying to intimidate anyone, or getting into any protest battles. We have no need to... The specs on our engines, transmissions, clutches etc. Will become public knowledge in due course. In fact our team will be the subject of so many articles and media attention this season, It will be impossible for us to get away with anything that is outside the rules! We have nothing to hide, if any competitor wants to know anything about our cars, they only have to ask... Who knows, they may learn something new!
My comments regarding counter protests were made because we were informed some time ago that our cars were going to be arbitrarily protested at the first event by a particular competitor... At the time I believed that this was just a case of sour grapes, or victimization? However, I was surprised to hear that in NASA, protests can be lodged virtually indiscriminately, with no fee or compensation to a competitor who is the subject of an unfounded protest. I was merely saying, don't try any to pull any unfounded crap! we are prepared to give as good as we get. We have no problem with random tech inspections or any reasonable request from any official as to the specs of any particular items on our cars. We just don't want to see competitors being allowed to go on indiscriminate fishing trips! If you want to know... Just ask. You might be surprised just how much valuable and helpful information you may receive.
Kiwi
Special Projects Motor Sports