Inspecting my h22 head today and i noticed that the egr port(not pictured) was disgusting. It was almost completely clogged up until i cleaned it out. And if you look at the valves, the ones from cylinder one are considerably dirtier than the other three cylinders valves which is because the exhaust gas is recirculated through the intake manifold and into cylinder 1.
Look how much more build up there is on cylinder 1 than the other three...

I'm going to be rebuilding the head and I'm going to use a Hondata Intake Manifold Gasket with the egr port blocked off because I don't know about you but I dont need that exhaust gas recirculated

 

I've seen accords do that before. It caused a slight miss in that cylinder. Stumped all the techs in the shop the first time we saw it. As long as you don't have to pass emissions you'll be fine blocking the egr port.

 

Why don't you just get an aftermarket gasket with a screen built in. The EGR is actually a good thing. It helps reduce NOX in the engine by lowering combustion chamber temps. It also helps improve MPG slightly, because you are replacing air/fuel with exhaust gas. The EGR valve doesn't hurt performance either, since it only operates during off-idle and cruise. Not during idle and WOT. Just something to think about. Good luck. John

 

the egr system is for emissions purposes only. it isn't helpful in any way excet for helping to reduce the initial formation of NO. it does this by introducing an inert gas (exhaust gas) which therefore produces large reductions in maximum combustion temperatures. exhaust gas recirculation penalizes engine performance AND fuel economy.
engine performance typically increases with a clogged egr system.

 

richer a/f ratios are required to maintain proper flame speeds on an engine equipped with an egr system.

 

You're right that the EGR system penalizes engine performance, but it's only at off-idle and cruise. Do you need power at off-idle and cruise? As soon as you stomp on the pedal, then the pintle is going to close and no more exhaust will be piped into the engine. How do you penalize engine performance with an EGR system? You have a fixed size in the combustion chamber, if you fill part of that space with exhaust gas then you have reduced the amount of HC and O2 that you can put into the cylinder.

Again, how do you need a richer mixture with an EGR system? The inert gas won't burn, but the rest of your mixture will. The flame front moves slower with richer mixtures. Lean is mean, and rich is a bitch.

 

i'm not refering to the specifics of a variable-flow system; off idle, WOT, cruise, ect. just the fact thath you're simply introducing exhaust gas. i'm not at all familliar with hondas approach to the reduction of emissions with egr (timing events).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigchevy66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're right that the EGR system penalizes engine performance, but it's only at off-idle and cruise. Do you need power at off-idle and cruise? As soon as you stomp on the pedal, then the pintle is going to close and no more exhaust will be piped into the engine. How do you penalize engine performance with an EGR system? You have a fixed size in the combustion chamber, if you fill part of that space with exhaust gas then you have reduced the amount of HC and O2 that you can put into the cylinder.

Again, how do you need a richer mixture with an EGR system? The inert gas won't burn, but the rest of your mixture will. The flame front moves slower with richer mixtures. Lean is mean, and rich is a bitch.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigchevy66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You're right that the EGR system penalizes engine performance, but it's only at off-idle and cruise. Do you need power at off-idle and cruise? As soon as you stomp on the pedal, then the pintle is going to close and no more exhaust will be piped into the engine. How do you penalize engine performance with an EGR system? You have a fixed size in the combustion chamber, if you fill part of that space with exhaust gas then you have reduced the amount of HC and O2 that you can put into the cylinder.

Again, how do you need a richer mixture with an EGR system? The inert gas won't burn, but the rest of your mixture will. The flame front moves slower with richer mixtures. Lean is mean, and rich is a bitch.</TD></TR></TABLE>

lean is mean, rich is a bitch. thats not truly an accurate statement. every motor has different needs. alcohol engines make more power once you go past the "ideal" air fuel ratio of 6:1. you simply go till the motor cant take any more (i.e. fouled plugs, washed bores, etc). more often than not, additional fuel in blower engines is there for the purpose of cooling the air charge, which is beneficial in every way, including burn.
again, i'm not exactly sure how honda went about timing the egr events. on older carbed angines disconnecting the egr would net nothing but improvements. pretty much the same for newer engines, possibly lesser improvements.

 

my egr is totally nopt hookeup is that gonna hurt any thing?
oh btw it is not hooked up b/c it is a swap in a civic if that matters

 

as long as we're talkin about egr systems... I had mine blocked off, and kept the sensor plugged in and now I get an EGR code-12. Should I just say **** it and take out the plate? Thanks for the help.

 

if you are obd1 and you block off the egr you shoudlnt get any CELs as long as you reconnect the sensor and the vacum tube...

 

Not trying to thread jack, but is there any way to clean your valves if you suspect this, without yanking head off?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by H22A EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my egr is totally nopt hookeup is that gonna hurt any thing?
oh btw it is not hooked up b/c it is a swap in a civic if that matters</TD></TR></TABLE>
if the computer you're using doesn't have egr operation, you're fine. if you're throwing a check engine light because of, chances are it's hurting performance. your local emissions laws may not like it though.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mattmw88 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had mine blocked off, and kept the sensor plugged in and now I get an EGR code-12. Should I just say **** it and take out the plate? Thanks for the help.</TD></TR></TABLE>
if the sensor is still plugged in you shouldn't be throwing a code unless there is a problem with the egr sensor (the sensor that routes to the egr solenoid via vac line). check your vac lines and wiring.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by littlechoppab20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not trying to thread jack, but is there any way to clean your valves if you suspect this, without yanking head off?
</TD></TR></TABLE>try Gumout Regane. you can pick it up at any autozone or advance. best stuff available.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by H22Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
try Gumout Regane. you can pick it up at any autozone or advance. best stuff available. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Does that go in the gas tank?

 

Nothing is ever truly accurate, there are always exceptions to the rules. I stated that , because we were tealking about a N/A gasoline engine. You are correct in your statements. I haven't looked at the EGR setup on a Honda, but it sounds like it's based off of engine vacuum vs. spring tension. The new Chevy Colorado inline 5 actually uses valve overlap as its EGR system. You'll find an emissiond sticker for the EGR, but no EGR valve.

As far as using extra fuel to cool the intake charge, you're completely right. A richer mixture does burn cooler than a leaner mixture. Using extra fuel to cool the intake charge for a roots type blower would be beneficial too, because you don't have a way to intercool it like you would with a turbo setup.

As far as the carb setup goes, I can believe that too. I like carbs, but the are prehistoric. The original EGR systems weren't too great either, so I believe you on that.

H22A EG6-- If it's not hooked up, and you don't notice any problems, then just leave it be. It might be worth it to hook it up and compare the two results. Then you could relay the info back to us.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by H22Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if the computer you're using doesn't have egr operation, you're fine. if you're throwing a check engine light because of, chances are it's hurting performance. your local emissions laws may not like it though.

</TD></TR></TABLE>
that is the beauty of minneasota there is no emmision checks!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by H22A EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that is the beauty of minneasota there is no emmision checks!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is the worst thing about california, there are horrific emission controls!

 

I don't think they have emissions checks here in florida, if they do they just dont care...

 

i thought that you also should also have the EGR because you need the air/pressure over the valves. Am i right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigchevy66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nothing is ever truly accurate, there are always exceptions to the rules. I stated that , because we were tealking about a N/A gasoline engine. You are correct in your statements. I haven't looked at the EGR setup on a Honda, but it sounds like it's based off of engine vacuum vs. spring tension. The new Chevy Colorado inline 5 actually uses valve overlap as its EGR system. You'll find an emissiond sticker for the EGR, but no EGR valve.

As far as using extra fuel to cool the intake charge, you're completely right. A richer mixture does burn cooler than a leaner mixture. Using extra fuel to cool the intake charge for a roots type blower would be beneficial too, because you don't have a way to intercool it like you would with a turbo setup.

As far as the carb setup goes, I can believe that too. I like carbs, but the are prehistoric. The original EGR systems weren't too great either, so I believe you on that.

H22A EG6-- If it's not hooked up, and you don't notice any problems, then just leave it be. It might be worth it to hook it up and compare the two results. Then you could relay the info back to us.</TD></TR></TABLE>

not meaning to stray too off topic, bu tthat's another thing that bothers me about people ate up with preaching efficiencey this, efficiency that, concerning forced induction applications. what most people don't realize is that having the "most efficient charger" isn't all that important. helpful, yes, but still not primarily important. what they're not taking into consideration is the fact that when you start cranking the pressure up more and more, true efficiency DOES start dropping, but, at the same time you're still flowing MORE air than you would be at lower "more efficient" boost pressures. just like we both mentioned, the fuel serving as an internal coolant, allowing you to make more power with the higher charge temps.
carburetors.......prehistoric? i'd like talk a little more about that, but the buzzer just went off here at work so i have to head home. i'll leave with this though for you to think about. emulsification vs. atomization. google(.com) it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigchevy66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

H22A EG6-- If it's not hooked up, and you don't notice any problems, then just leave it be. It might be worth it to hook it up and compare the two results. Then you could relay the info back to us.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yea on the butt dyno

 

H22Si-- I googled that, but I really don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for. Give me a shout if you want to talk carbs. They're alright, but I like the thought of mapping out fuel and timing curves on a laptop. Eventually I will, but my resto rods will have to have carbs, mainly bec. I like the nostalgic look. Triple webbers, a six pack, two fours, they all sound good to me.

 

I'm very happy to have found this topic. And I have questions for you guys.

Don't you think that by blocking the EGR, the stochio a/f ratio combustion would be too hot for the engine ? As you know, the EGR permits to run stoich a/f ratio at part throttle without the high heat generated by such an a/f ratio. I keep reading on EGR since years now, but no one seems to ask/answer this basic question...

After removing the EGR function on my 1996 H22A1 (OBD2) by simply installing the Hondata intake gasket (w/o drilling the EGR hole), it was crazy how the engine was running hot. My SS catback was red hot all the way. After that I contact Hondata to check if it was suitable to run without EGR... the answers I got were not answers. Disapointed... At this point I'm really wondering if I've reduced the life of some components, like valve seats compound, etc since I used the car like this for many months...

So I raised the Fuel Pressure at Part throttle (in order to get a richer a/f ratio at part throttle) by removing the vacuum hose on the FPR. The fuel pressure always stayed at WOT pressure (33 psi under vacuum, 40 psig at WOT). That pressure change was supposed to give 10% more fuel at part throttle... considering that the ECU wasn't correcting injectors duty cycle based on the O2 sensor output change. Was the ECU correcting the a/f and going back to stochio a/f ratio ?! I really don't know. But I plan on testing it on a brake motor dyno with a wideband 02 sensor next week.

Unplugging the EGR electric plug...
As you know this would put the ECU in open loop. I would think that this particular check engine code would put the ECU to run conservative a/f ratio at part throtle (richer) in order to lower combustion temps. But I'm wondering if this would affect the WOT performance since the ECU goes in Open loop anyway at WOT. In other words, do you know if the WOT fuel/timing maps remains the same while running with a check engine code ?

Now you probably asking yourself why I cancelled the EGR... right?!. I cancelled the EGR because I want the intake manifold as cold as possible since running a JRSC setup. Using the Hondata gasket with the EGR on a H22A is a waste of money because even this stops the heat coming for the engine head, there is still 300deg.F exhaust gas in direct contact with the IM and heating it.

Thank you in advance for your help/information.



Modified by SRVMAN at 4:24 PM 4/7/2004

 

carbon adds character and compression