I want to be competetive in my regions SM division and I'm leaning towards a Jackson racing supercharger for help. I recently added a set of ITR components into my '99 Si including TB, IM, valvetrain, and cams. Everything else on the car, from the suspension components to the motor, transmission, and bolt-on's, has been upgraded. My last dyno visit, I put down 160 Whp and 107 Wtq. I have a Hondata system and I raised the redline to 8,500 rpm. I was thinking a small turbo setup would help but I'd hate to get rid of the 4-1 header I have so I was considering a Vortech or Jackson racing supercharger. I was leaning towards the Jackson racing because of it's low-midrange capabilities. The only thing is, I'm normally between 5,000-8,200rpm's in second gear on the local courses I ran last year. This was why I was also looking into the Vortech supercharger. I want to be more competetive against the AWD talons/eclipses, and M3's I'll be up against in SM this year. Any insight would be helpful!
P.S.- I'm also signing up for the May Stage 1 Evolution school this year so I hope this will add to my cometitiveness this year in SM .

 

It's very hard to be competitive in SM with a honda unless you have a civic hatch that is gutted, has a motor transplant (B18C1), race tires and some kind of forced induction. And I would not consider getting a Vortech supercharger. It has all the disadvantages of a turbo (lag) and supercharger (heatsoak). Go perform a search, you will see that many people on this board disapprove of that route. What I would do is probably go turbo, maybe a td05h-18g or a small t3/t4 turbo. The best bet would be a GT turbo, but its quite expensive.

 

Did you build this car specifically for autox? Because if you did, no matter what you throw on there it's never going to be a front-runner car on a national stage.

While SM is the proper class for you it seems, just keep in mind that someone with a purpose built car is going to win.

Turbo is a waste of money in your circumstance IMO, unless you just want to make it more of a fun street car.

 

Well, in my region, I managed to kind of fall in the middle-back of SM with a '93 Civic Coupe, a super-whack alignment (you just wouldn't believe how off it was, so shameful), stock 185/60/14 and a t3@10psi. This year, I'm gutting the car (how much can one gut it, btw, what do you HAVE to maintain?) running 195 Azenis and working on the response and GOOD alignment. I'm hoping ~2000lbs, better handling and 200+whp will do me good!

::EDIT:: I also believe a S/C is the way to go for autocross, but if you're also streeting the car, a smallish turbo can do you good. I was thinking of switching to an ihi rhb5 (or is it rbh5?) because it is tiny and ball-bearing. Something to consider.

 

"Gutting" will move you from Street Modified to Modified (D-Mod, I believe).

 

yes, gutted interior= Dmod

 

Yes, there's GUTTED, then there's stripped...in SM one can remove the rear-seats, and basically anything under the hood, I suppose, but how would one get an EG-coupe (my car) ~2400lbs stock down close to the 1900lb limit for forced-induction?

I'm going to remove the sun-roof and use a super-duper light hood (and possibly fenders) as well as make the exhaust a side-exit, with just a resonator. All in all, I think those mods will help me lose >100lbs (25-30lbs for hood&fenders, XX for exhaust, 15-20lbs for the sunroof/motor?! and 50 lbs for rear seats/belts?) , but that's still a long way to go. What's the lightest SM civic anyone has heard of?

The rule book seems kind of vague on this, since it has to retain 'all road-going equipment' and interior (I believe) though you can ditch the rear-seats, which would fall under both of those categories...I suppose I could replace every suspension member with custom billet aluminum parts.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> and 50 lbs for rear seats/belts?) </TD></TR></TABLE>
I've pulled the rear seats and belts out of my car on occassion and I don't think that they're anywhere near 50lbs...

christian- who knows that his car is outclassed at the national level but is happy trophying locally... for now

 

why not just road race it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrew 825SM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's very hard to be competitive in SM with a honda unless you have a civic hatch that is gutted, has a motor transplant (B18C1), race tires and some kind of forced induction. </TD></TR></TABLE>

funny, i have a competitive SM civic that is not gutted, nor does it have forced induction. in fact, it has an almost stock b series.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, there's GUTTED, then there's stripped...in SM one can remove the rear-seats, and basically anything under the hood</TD></TR></TABLE>

i wouldn;t consider a car with the rear seats removed "gutted". basically anything under the hood? i assume you ar referrring to power plant. yes, the engine from the mounting points in is free.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how would one get an EG-coupe (my car) ~2400lbs stock down close to the 1900lb limit for forced-induction? </TD></TR></TABLE>

that is not going to happen legally.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> What's the lightest SM civic anyone has heard of? </TD></TR></TABLE>

this year at nationals, grady wood''s civic was right as 1800 with what i think was non-legal ballast. also, chris raglin's civic (he is on this board, hi chris... ) was right near the 1900 lb limit for forced induction. both cars were 3rd generation (84-87) civic hatch's.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The rule book seems kind of vague </TD></TR></TABLE>

welcome to solo2. it is not vague. basically, if it says you can do it, you can. if it does not, and you can;t find a clear cut ruling anywhere in the rulebook, it is not legal.

basically, you are alowed unlimited motor, unlimited suspension, with a few extras (steering,hood, fenders, fascia, sunroof are all free in addition to removal of rear seats). aside from that, the car must remain stock. even removing sound deadening is not a legal modification (although there was one particular car at nationals this year without it ). all in all, SM is a great class. thanks scca for finally giving me a place to compete with my civic

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rodney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">funny, i have a competitive SM civic that is not gutted, nor does it have forced induction. in fact, it has an almost stock b series. ....

words, words, words...

all in all, SM is a great class. thanks scca for finally giving me a place to compete with my civic </TD></TR></TABLE>
Rodney tells it like it is... again.

Christian- who the more he thinks about Nat's the more he thinks he needs to go...

 

so removal of rear seats is ok, how about the carpet in the rear? just curious because whe are going to nationals in ft myers next week and just want to be legal.

later
matt

 

if the carpet is attached the seats, not a problem

 

Power isn't where it's at...grip and handling is the key. I've been thinking of getting some Hoosiers, but I don't think I can afford consumables like that. How long do yours last, Rodney? Also, how much does your sexy EG weigh, these days?

 

A funny thing happened while I was out; My thread got JACKED!!! At any rate, besides the gutted vs. non-gutted subject can someone give me some insight into my original question? I want to be competetive in SM and I'm looking for some suggestions on which type of forced induction I should try to persue in order to stay competative in this class.

 

I've driven a GSR with a SRSC and found it to be very responsive with excellent bottom end and serious top end compared to my stock motored GSR. It really did make it feel like a bigger motored car. I would avoid the Vortech, it will act more like a large drag race type turbo.

What are you running for wheels/tires? With the extra power, you will either be shifting to third or need to look at a taller tire. Do you have a limited slip? More torque=you really need one.

Were you at Valeo in the fall? I was there in DSP in the green integra.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Osokwik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A funny thing happened while I was out; My thread got JACKED!!! At any rate, besides the gutted vs. non-gutted subject can someone give me some insight into my original question? I want to be competetive in SM and I'm looking for some suggestions on which type of forced induction I should try to persue in order to stay competative in this class.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You got your answer. And more power is not it.

Why don't you concentrate on handling and grip before you go throwing a turbo on your car?

You wanna go faster? Run 225 Hoosiers with a real suspension. A bone stock Civic Si with a setup suspension, good tires and a good driver will win SM in 80% of the local regions around the country, maybe more.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm going to remove the sun-roof and use a super-duper light hood (and possibly fenders) as well as make the exhaust a side-exit, with just a resonator. All in all, I think those mods will help me lose &gt;100lbs (25-30lbs for hood&fenders, XX for exhaust, 15-20lbs for the sunroof/motor?! and 50 lbs for rear seats/belts?)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stock hood weighs 32-35lbs. Stock fenders weigh less than 5 each.

I don't know how much the stock exhaust weighs, but I know my 2.25" stainless and 10 lb muffler weighs around 30lbs. Stock probably weighs about 50.

Rear seats and belts are about 35 all together.

So if you get a fiberglass skin hood with no skeleton that weighs 5 lbs, a side exit exhaust with a liteweight resonator that weighs maybe 13lbs, and take out the rear seats and belts, you're actually pretty damned close to losing that 100lbs. I didnt say anything about the fenders because if you found something lighter, you would only be loosing a few pounds.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How long do your hoosiers last, Rodney? Also, how much does your sexy EG weigh, these days?</TD></TR></TABLE>

hoosiers competitive life may be 2 national events at best, or about 10-12 local events. my car will shred through front tires quite easily. the car at weigh in last year was 2231 without my 215 lb lard ***...not exactly a featherweight the original poster has a 99 si, a car which i also own. there is no way for him to get down to a similiar weight legally. throw in that his car has a 2 inch longer wheel base, and that makes it even tougher to drive.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Osokwik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A funny thing happened while I was out; My thread got JACKED!!! </TD></TR></TABLE>

jeesh... sorry bro for trying to help.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Osokwik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">At any rate, can someone give me some insight into my original question? I want to be competetive in SM and I'm looking for some suggestions on which type of forced induction I should try to persue in order to stay competative in this class.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

umm.... i said stay away from forced induction, but that's the beauty of SM. what i think may not work for everyone.

also, 743 is basically dead on with his weights. finally someone who has actual data, not saying "the rear seats are 800lbs...." the only thing i could add to that is my stock hood was 31 lbs. in addition, my full length fujitsubo exhaust is 21.8 lbs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohudsolo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What are you running for wheels/tires? With the extra power, you will either be shifting to third or need to look at a taller tire. Do you have a limited slip? More torque=you really need one.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have a few sets :
14" X 6" Hayashi's with 195/60/14 Azenis (For my street tires )
15" X 6" stock Si rims with 205/50/15 Victoracer V700's
13" X 7" 5 spoke American Racing rims (11 Lb.'s each ) with 205/45/13 Hoosier A3S03's
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohudsolo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Were you at Valeo in the fall? I was there in DSP in the green integra.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes I was. I had the black '99 Si in SM. That, ironicly, was the first time I ran in SM because I just swapped in the cams the week before. The next meet at MCC was where I got my a$$ handed to me by those 2 AWD talons!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why don't you concentrate on handling and grip before you go throwing a turbo on your car?</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you read my original question, I told everyone that I already have a highly modiflied suspension. Here is what I have:
-Tokico Illumina shocks
-Ground control coilovers
-Front and rear strut tower bars
-Progressive 22mm lower anti-sway bar
-3 different sizes of rim/tire combinations as mentioned in the post above.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You wanna go faster? Run 225 Hoosiers with a real suspension. A bone stock Civic Si with a setup suspension, good tires and a good driver will win SM in 80% of the local regions around the country, maybe more.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Now that you know what I have as far as the suspension mod.'s, what else can I do? I already mentioned that I'll be going to an Evolution school early this comming spring.

 

Dude, the best advice I can give you is to stop pouring money into this car, get a dedicated car (like an EF or EG hatch or something) and build it for STS or SM if you so desire. Return your 99 Si to stock and enjoy it on the street as they make fun daily drivers. Then sell off the parts or re-use them on the track car. It will cost you waay less and you will enjoy autox a lot more and your daily commute also...

 

I don't think your thread has been hijacked, it's just that the opinions people are giving aren't in the direction you were intending on going. Power really isn't the way to go, sadly. I mean, if money is no object, sure, put a JRSC on there (is water injection allowed?) and you will be faster, but not that much faster right off.

In upgrading my car, I have gone the route of replacing the things that will last the longest, first. SO, Turbo-&gt;Suspension-&gt;Clutch-&gt;Brakes(rear disc/front calipers). This made my car only marginally faster last year. The problem was that I was running stock wheels with not-so-good tires. This year, I am working on response and grip. These are the key.

For example, in my region, there is a non-turbo Dodge Omni, which I would wager has a turd for an engine, and it is pretty f*cking fast. It has 225+Hoosiers and drives on rails. You get up to speed and don't slow down

So, I would wager you have the 'stock' Ground Controls, which are ~220F/120R, as I recall. IF this is the case, they are way too soft. I will be running 450F/350R (which is a little too soft), stock front sway bar and stock Integra rear sway bar. This is because it is the best I can afford at this point and tolerate on the street. I actually run 350F/450R now, but after some thinking, the traditional set-up is the way to go (higherF/lowerR).

If money is an object, the JRSC fund will keep you in Hoosiers for a while and allow you to get a good custom alignment, and maybe afford some instruction and autocross time, out of competition.

I also have the buy-pretty-parts sickness, but it's not the way to go, here.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ion_four &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, I would wager you have the 'stock' Ground Controls, which are ~220F/120R, as I recall. IF this is the case, they are way too soft. I will be running 450F/350R (which is a little too soft), stock front sway bar and stock Integra rear sway bar. This is because it is the best I can afford at this point and tolerate on the street. I actually run 350F/450R now, but after some thinking, the traditional set-up is the way to go (higherF/lowerR).</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ground Control's default rates aren't anywhere near that soft (those are pretty close to stock rates). I think the default rates are more like 350f/250r - which is still pretty soft for Street Mod. The SM Civic I co-drove last year was using 550f/500r, and it probably could have done even better with a little bit stiffer rates.

 

An Si won SM in our region (against a nicely set up E46M3 SMG). He actually took off his JRSC. He has a LSD, ran most of the season on pro-kits, then switched to GC/Koni, and some other stuff. How'd he do it? He is a great driver. Once he gets back from Atlanta he will probably chime in.

Buy some driving schools. And to answer your question directly, the best FI is none.