I know this is a "Honda" Forum, but if anyone could point me in the right direction it would be wonderful.

Say, hypothetically, someone was going to give you your choice of an STi or Evo to go road racing with. They have been classed by the SCCA in T1 where Z06's live. What mods are allowed (required) in T1, and do either car have a snowballs chance of being competitive when it isn't raining?

 

These cars have been classified reluctantly (my interpretation) and put where they are unlikely to cause a stink even if someone cheats them up. SCCA has just enough institutional memory to still be skeered of turbo cars, after rampant problems in Showroom Stock in the '80s.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SCCA has just enough institutional memory to still be skeered of turbo cars, after rampant problems in Showroom Stock in the '80s.

K</TD></TR></TABLE>


Kirks right.....

The Nissan 300ZX guys were famous for adding 'magic' boost controllers where the stereo volume should be. Turbo technology 20+ years later should be able to 'hide' cheating much better.

STi vs. Z06...... Good luck with that!

 

True that...and add the 944 turbos...
But if, like normal, it rains at the runoffs...I would want to be in one of those...

 

At the Cal Club National at CA Speedway earlier this month, the results show a T1 Subaru and a T1 ZO6, with the ZO6 notching a fast lap 7.5 seconds faster than the Subaru. I don't recognize either driver's name, so I can't comment on that important part of the equation. Plus, CA Speedway is surely a horsepower/aero track since the road course uses part of the super-speedway. Rain, and lots of it, are the only hope for the STi/EVO.

The T2 Neon SRT's were faster than the 350Z at the same event, even with TC Kline driving the Z. They were almost 2 seconds per lap faster, although they are factory prepared/driven entries, if I'm not mistaken.

( Results - http://www.calclub.com/html/ht...4.htm )

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">STi vs. Z06...... Good luck with that!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

And don't forget about the 2005 Z06 with 500 hp. At which point they'll likely take the restrictor plate off the Viper as well. Yeah, I don't think those guys are going to have that much to worry about. Unless it rains...

Now, the SRT-4 in T2 is another matter. Those guys are already running past the Camaros and they haven't had enough time to figure out how to cheat yet...

 

Yeah.
And Dodge, as usual, is getting behind the SRT4 effort.

I wish Honda was even close to as enthusiastic as Mazda, Dodge, and Subaru about the SCCA.

Scott, who'd love to have the funds and backing to run a T2 SRT4 Nationally.

 

So the SRT4s are in T2? How can this be - a turbo car that can be competitive? If I recall, stock SRT4s put down around 225 whp and stock 350Zs are in the 230 whp range. I also have a feeling the turbo neon will pick up a bit more hp when uncorked in T2 than a 350Z will. Should be fun driving a 300 hp at the crank fwd car!

As far as the EVO and STI, unless it's snowing on the track I don't see them ever beating a Z06 with equal drivers and prep.

 

And the 2004 SRT4s come from the factory with an LSD.
A quaife IIRC.

Yeah... I'd be all over that shizzy.

Scott, who really, really needs to find a bored rich guy who wants to back him financially.

 

Showroom stock..in this case Touring 1/2 rules are more restrictive than Autocrossing, some cars are allwed "trunnk kits" but not in these cases.

This means not even shocks, so because of the better suspension set-up on the Evo I would go for it over the STi. For reference, I had about 2k track miles in the Evo last year, and at the end of the year did a few days in an STi.

I ran a bone stock Evo 8 in One Lap of America last year, so I do have some track data.

Evo was off the showroom floor, OEM tires, exhaust, everything.

Roebling Road Lap: 1:26.5
Carolina Motorsports Park: 1:53.9 (good conditions but I would still have liked to do a tire pressure adjustment, i think there were a few more tenths out there.)Hallett: 1:31.2 (horribly geared track for the Evo, and I only got 8 laps on it. but I include it because the Z06 guys that we talked to seemed pretty surprised by the lap times on street tires)

T1 Record at Hallett is a 1:24.50 the site does not say what car, but being it was set in 03, I would think it is a Z06.

T1 record Carolina Motorsports Park: Corvette, 1:46.303

I cant find the Roebling track records, but the fastest lap at last April's national (1 week after my test day there) was a 1:22.202 in a Z06

So in bone stock form, down to the tires, and no alignment even i was running 5-7% behind National Z06 times. The real question to their competitivness is if the tires, and getting to play with the alignment a little can make that up. Also, this year the Evo RS is out, and is less weight, so that might factor in a little also.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

Turbo technology hasn't advanced far enough to make it impossible to put a memory pressure guage on the intake manifold, has it? O

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And the 2004 SRT4s come from the factory with an LSD.
A quaife IIRC.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't forget the 20 extra hp the '04 has over the '03. But at least they are by far the lightest car in T2.

Matt&lt;---sold a lot of SRT-4 pads in the last couple of weeks....

 

This is great stuff!! Jon - thanks for the EVO performance info. I agree that the Mits is more race tuned in stock form, even if the STi has an edge in power. One thing that bothers me a bit, is the stock tires on the Evo seem to be really track tires - I would guess nearly equiv to a Toyo RA1. I wonder how much they really benefit from a race tire.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Showroom stock..in this case Touring 1/2 rules are more restrictive than Autocrossing, some cars are allwed "trunnk kits" but not in these cases.

This means not even shocks, so because of the better suspension set-up on the Evo I would go for it over the STi. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought you could do shocks, bars, exhaust, wheels and some other basic mods in T1/T2? I don't have an '04 GCR handy to double check.

 

there is no doubt that the Evo tires are incredible (Yoko Advans) As far as them being like a good DOT race tire, its hard to say.

Are they like a Hoosier, nope. Are they like the RA-1?
I dont think they are quite there, I am a very big fan of the RA-1. I have driven the Evo on an autocross course with the Hoosiers, but not a roadrace track. (since we were testing for One Lap, there was no reason to run the car in non one-lap trim)

The Advan would fall off after a couple laps as they heated up, which the true DOT compounds are more resistant to. At CMP the fast lap came on my 2nd lap of the run. (of 3, Fun part was it was my 2nd lap for car/track combo) The afternoon session i made a tire pressure adjustment but the hotter track heated the tires up and the fast lap was on lap 4 (of 4) when i had slowed to let the tires cool a little on lap 3. (i ran a 1:54.2 compared to the 1:53.9 of the morning session)

One of these days I am just going to have to beg to take the Evo out at CMP or some place with the Hoosiers on it. Then we get to see for sure.

hint: anyone that wants to supply me with that hypothetical T1 season in an Evo feel free

Ah...looking at the rulebook now, you may not change springs or sway bars unless the book says you can which differes from car to car. But shocks may be changed. It reads much like the Solo II shock rules, although there is no line about limiting adjustments, only that you may not have remote resevior.

Wow, looking over the rules the Z06 is allowed a ton of stuff. a GM "T1" suspension package. (this is the 03 book, so it does not have specs on the 03/04 Z06)

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com



Modified by racerjon1 at 8:03 PM 2/11/2004

 

I remember seeing a notice recently on the scca site that the vettes are now limited on tire sizes versus last year. They can only run specific tires on each end, before they could run the same front and back. Interestingly enough, stock sizes are now illegal on the Z06 in T1. This may slow them down a bit, or just increase their tire bills, not sure.

A scca board member stated that they put the turbo cars in a higher class to leave room for adjustment, I think that means creative cheating. The evo can get more negative camber, and has wider wheels, so it may be a bit easier on tires.

 

yes the good old "Forced induction are eeeeviiil cheater cars!!!!!!!!" argument.

Not only is it laughable and hypocritical, considering the masse of cheatered up N/A cars at the runoffs, but its also easily solved with a restrictor and a memory boost gauge. Imagine that.

And oh look, its easier to police and enforce than tearing down some N/A motor to measure the cams, inspect for machining marks, etc. wow.


PS- having instructed in an EVO, an STi, and driven an STi on track, neither sets of OE tires are anywhere near an R-compound. Both are about the same, and have roundabouts the grip of a Falken, but with a softer sidewall.

 

Hold on guys... let's define "Cheating"

Both the STi and the EVO's boost are controlled by their ECU's. I finally found a GCR and read that part where modifications to the ECU are LEGAL as long as they are inside the ECU box. To me, that means that remapping the boost pressure is 100% legal as long as it is within the confines of the stock ECU box. There ARE companies that reprogram these things. Am I missing something here?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hold on guys... let's define "Cheating"

Both the STi and the EVO's boost are controlled by their ECU's. I finally found a GCR and read that part where modifications to the ECU are LEGAL as long as they are inside the ECU box. To me, that means that remapping the boost pressure is 100% legal as long as it is within the confines of the stock ECU box. There ARE companies that reprogram these things. Am I missing something here?</TD></TR></TABLE>

ECU modifications are only legal as per the section ITCS. So they are only legal in IT. SS and Touring are ,t o th ebest of my knowledge, not to be touched

 

In reading a thread on the T1 part of sccaforums they were discussing a blown up ls4 motor and the fact that they only used a 7200 rpm limit compared to the factory one of 6800 and some running them to 7500+. I'm sure the limiter is in the computer, so they allow at least some changes. On the other hand some region was failing vipers on tech when they had check engine lights illuminated. Based on the responses I saw from national officials, they may not have the whole thing as well defined as it should be.

In a few writeups I've seen on T2 races this year, SRT4s have blown past Z28s on long straights. Acceleration numbers on stock cars indicate the neon should not be faster in a straight line, which sounds like they may have had some changes. I have not heard about any protests on them for cheating. Maybe boost tweeks are OK?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohudsolo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe boost tweeks are OK?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure that deliberate boost tweaks are ok. However the advantage of most turbo cars is that with freed up intake and exhaust tracts, they get more gains than an equivalent NA car. An NA car's gains come from freeing up the power that's lost through the stock restrictive intake/exhaust systems. Turbo cars benefit from these same gains too, but most turbo cars have an equally if not more important gain - which is an increase in actual peak boost pressure because there is less backpressure in the system. For example, my talon bone stock was showing 12 psi on the autometer guage. After putting on just an intake and a turbo back exhaust with high flow cat, it was running at 15 psi. This was without doing anything else. The gains from just this were evident and I doubt that an equivalent NA car would deliver the same noticeable seat of the pants gains from just an intake and exhaust. I see this as the main advantage for turbo vs NA cars when "uncorked". Not sure what the intake rule is in T2, but I'm betting that just putting on a big diameter exhaust on an SRT4 would add a couple more psi over its stock level. Do they have to run a cat in T2?

 

I'm not guessing here guys, I am READING the GCR. The 2003+ GCR specifically states that ECU mods within the box are LEGAL for Touring class.

Other rules: Only the filter element can be changed, the cat must stay and the car must still meet emmissions. (maybe why a check engine light might fail a car) If it meets sound, I could probaby run a straight pipe after the cat and Turbo though.

 

alex, that is true for mechanically controlled boost, but for my WRX which has ECU controlled boost (wastegate) like the EVO and STi, when it sees the higher boost level from the exhaust, it cuts the boost back to the regular level. This means you will get higher boost spikes, but regular boost stays the same.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Scott, who really, really needs to find a bored rich guy who wants to back him financially.</TD></TR></TABLE>

[David Lee Roth voice]Just a gigolo, everywhere I go...[/David Lee Roth voice]

 

French/Texan/David Lee Roth? Wow... and I thought my relative with a combined Sri Lankan/British/Tennessee-an accent was an amusing amalgamation...

I'm not sure even turbo cheating in an STi will give it a chance against a Z06 until they start combining a few dirt jumps and mudsplashes down every major straightaway.